Recorded: August 25, 2022

Cara McNulty is a population health scientist and the President, Behavioral Health and Employee Assistance Programs at Aetna, a CVS Health Company. She’s also a woman who has experienced mental illness. This week, Snap Out of It! The Mental Illness in the Workplace Podcast with Natasha Tracy is talking with Cara McNulty about her own experience with mental illness, amplifying her passion for helping others with mental illness. We’re also going to be talking about what place an employer should have when dealing with employees with mental illness and how voices with mental illness are shamed and silenced.

Helping People with Mental Illness at Work

We’re going to be discussing things like:

• Cara’s personal experience of mental illness
• Passion for helping people with mental illness at work
• Why employers should support people with mental illness
• What employers should be doing to help people with mental illness
• Changing the silencing and shaming of those with mental illness

Whether you are in human resources, a c-suite executive, or simply want to ensure that people with mental illness get what they need at work, you don’t want to miss this episode.

The episode is now available across podcast platforms:

• Spotify (follows)
• Apple Podcasts
• Google Podcasts
• Stitcher

Cara McNulty’s Bio

Cara McNulty, DPA, is President of Behavioral Health and Employee Assistance Programs at CVS Health, a leading provider of mental health and employee assistance program (EAP) solutions to members and communities around the globe. She oversees a national team that spearheads the development of CVS Health and Aetna’s programs, products, and capabilities designed to offer individuals easy access to quality, innovative treatments and meet people wherever they are along the continuum of mental wellbeing.

Cara is a highly-regarded executive leader and population health scientist whose success in driving population wellbeing outcomes spans the employer, government, payer/provider, start-up, and education sectors. She is known for her ability to integrate confirmed health science into practical business models that drive measurable outcomes.

Focused on the increased need for mental wellbeing resources exacerbated by the COVID-19 pandemic, Cara leads CVS Health’s strategy to expand mental health services and resources. Most recently, this included Aetna offering members cost-sharing waivers for mental and behavioral health telemedicine visits at the onset of the pandemic, as well as opening Aetna’s Resources For Living crisis and health support lines to all consumers regardless of health plan.

Cara previously served as the North American leader of Integrated Wellbeing for Willis Towers Watson. Her responsibilities included advising clients on strategies focusing on employee engagement, clinical outcomes, and productivity. She sat on the company’s Health and Benefits Specialty Practice Leadership team and focused on integrated wellbeing, intellectual capital, and service development across physical, emotional, financial, and social dimensions.

As the former Head of Population Health, Team Member Wellbeing, and Guest Wellness for Target Corporation, she led efforts to implement the company’s health agenda. She developed strategies that improved all team members’ health, driving value and business growth while decreasing healthcare expenditures.

Cara is nationally recognized for her strategic design and implementation of Minnesota’s transformational population healthcare legislation, which to date is one of the largest financial allocations in the country for initiatives known to be reducing health disparities and chronic diseases.

She holds a doctorate in public administration from Hamline University, a Master of Science in applied health science from Indiana University, and a Bachelor of Science in community health education from the University of Minnesota-Duluth.

Transcript

Natasha Tracy (00:02):

Okay. Hi everybody. Welcome to “Snap Out of It! The Mental Illness in the Workplace Podcast” with me, Natasha Tracy. Today we are talking with Cara McNulty, president of Behavioral Health and Mental Wellbeing at C V S Health, a leading provider of mental health and employee assistance program solutions. She oversees a national team that spearheads the development of CVS Health and Aetna’s programs, products and capabilities designed to offer individuals easy access to treatments and meet people wherever they are along the continuum of mental wellness.

Natasha Tracy (00:36):

I want to remind our audience that this is a live stream, so pop your questions for Cara in the comment box at any time, and we might just answer them during the podcast.

Natasha Tracy (00:45):

But before we get to Cara, I just want to remind people that while workplace mental health is very important, this podcast actually aims to highlight workplace mental illness. Now one in five people have a diagnosable mental illness, but these people are often left out of the conversation when we talk about mental health in general. So this particular podcast aims to shine the light on that 20% of people.

Natasha Tracy (01:10):

Hi Cara. Welcome to “Snap Out of It!”

Cara McNulty (01:13):

Hi. Thanks for having me.

Natasha Tracy (01:15):

I’m so glad you’re here today.

Cara McNulty (01:17):

Oh, I’m grateful to be here.

Natasha Tracy (01:20):

So tell me a little bit about yourself and your role.

Cara McNulty (01:24):

Sure. So I am a population health scientist and what that means is I study a population, look at what’s getting in the way of people being their ideal self from a health aspect. Then look at what can you do about it? How do you do rapid testing and solution innovation and remove barriers? And what I found out early in my career is no matter what is happening in someone’s life, they have a new cancer diagnosis. They’re having a baby, they are making a big transition, they’re getting married, they have an accident, they have, um, a new job. There is always a mental health component. And usually that mental health component is really at the core of a person’s health wellbeing. And so I started focusing on mental health wellbeing because when we focus on mental health yes, as well as mental illness mm-hmm. <affirmative>, we really can connect the whole head and heart ecosystem. So at CVS Health Aetna, I lead a team that provides support clinical services and solutions across a, think of the continuum of mental health wellbeing. So from low acuity to stress, anxiety, uh, burnout all the way through to mental illness. And it is a pleasure to lead this team and do this work. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> because on a daily basis we get to help people be their best and normalize this conversation that everyone is impacted by their own mental health wellbeing and those around them.

Natasha Tracy (03:24):

Well, thank you. I think you put it so well. And I love the way you said, um, a head and heart system, I believe is what you said, or heart and body system, something like that. That was beautiful. I think that, we often think of mental illness over here and our body’s over here and that they’re not somehow connected. But of course we know that mental illness is not just in the mind. Mental illness is not even just in the brain, but mental illness is throughout the body. So thank you so much for recognizing that and bringing it forward.

Cara McNulty (03:54):

Absolutely.

Natasha Tracy (03:56):

So I want to start by asking about your personal experience with mental illness. I believed you experienced mental illness with your second pregnancy. Can you tell me what that was like and what that did, in the workplace, if anything?

Cara McNulty (04:10):

Sure. You know, I’m a health scientist. I’ve had my first baby, my husband and I have a second child 23 months later and mm-hmm. <affirmative>, her name is Isabel. Isabel gets diagnosed with RSV, which is a respiratory issue. Okay. And can be very dangerous and can be deadly. Isabel was six months at the time, which is really a, a time in a baby’s life that for a child to get RSV it’s a little safer because their lungs are more developed. I knew that. I knew all the science, I knew all the education, all the information. Yeah. But I went right in my head and stayed there. And what happened is I started checking on Isabel all the time, making sure she was breathing because it’s a breathing issue. Right. And then I decided, well, instead of checking on her, I’ll just hold her.

Cara McNulty (05:14):

Just hold her because then I know if she’s breathing. Makes sense. Now remember I have a two year old at the time and a newborn

Natasha Tracy (05:23):

Mm-hmm. <affirmative>

Cara McNulty (05:24):

And a husband who’s absolutely engaged, an ecosystem that’s involved. And here I am in the health field and I went from, I’ll hold her to I really don’t need to eat because then I have to lay her down right. To who needs to shower. I’m in my pajamas, I’m good to sitting on the floor holding her delirious, crying. My two-year-old sitting next to me saying, “mama sad,” “mama sad.” And me not having the wherewithal to know that I was experiencing postpartum anxiety. And my husband, I’ll never forget this, sat on the floor and he said, I don’t know what’s happening, but I know this is not how it’s supposed to be, and you always tell me that we should ask for help. And when we ask for help, it’s a sign of courage. And I said, you’re right. I need help. And so I have, um, from that experience, I’m very passionate, I have always been passionate about mental health and mental illness. And then it happens to you. Yeah. And what you realize is everybody’s impacted, not only was I impacted, but my two-year-old, my baby, my husband, my mother, you know, it impacts your ecosystem. But here I, here I am, I have all the tools, I have the education, I have the research. And Natasha, I couldn’t get myself off that floor.

Natasha Tracy (06:57):

Yeah.

Cara McNulty (06:58):

And what I have learned is by asking for help, learning more about things like postpartum depression and anxiety and other illnesses, it is empowering. It is so empowering. I had what I didn’t know was anxiety all along. Right. But I thought I was just being nervous. Yeah. Where I was just worrying too much. And so I will tell you, it has made me, um, not only an empathetic advocate, it has made me a fierce advocate Yeah. For the reality that we all are impacted by our own mental health and that of others, and it’s normal. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Yeah. It’s normal. It’s, it’s really normal to have a mental illness or an episodic situation Yeah. Or a brief encounter with let’s say social anxiety. Yeah. It’s really normal.

Natasha Tracy (08:03):

Well, thank you for sharing that. It’s, it must have been such a painful time for you and I really appreciate you allowing me to ask you about it because it’s something that I know so many people have grappled with either during a pregnancy, but maybe nothing to do with a pregnancy. And so, you know, sitting on that floor and not being able to move, it just shows you how powerful mental illness really is. It absolutely 100% can control you at times.

Cara McNulty (08:36):

Oh, uh, completely. And what I didn’t know Natasha is mm-hmm. <affirmative>, it was this gradual change

Natasha Tracy (08:44):

Yeah.

Cara McNulty (08:45):

And I couldn’t see it. Yeah.

Cara McNulty (08:49):

What I thought was really rational behavior. I mean, it all made so much sense. Yeah. And, it took my, my own partner saying, “you told me, you tell people all the time, it takes courage to ask for help. Yeah. We, we need help here. We need help.” And, and that is probably, those words I need help are so empowering. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> so empowering and hard

Natasha Tracy (09:20):

And hard, hard, very, very hard. But as you said, empowering and, you know, I always tell people, if you don’t ask for help, you can’t get help. In other words, you can’t get better. So. Right. You know, those words are scary. I will be the first to admit that. But they are also the words that are gonna help you get to the other side of whatever you’re struggling with. So Thank you. And can you tell me, how is your mental health today?

Cara McNulty (09:46):

Hmm. I love that question. I can tell you that my mental health most days is really great. Is really great. And I work very hard at it. Yeah. I treat it just like my physical health, you know, I need rest mm-hmm. <affirmative>, because when I don’t rest, I’m more anxious. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> just like my physical body, we need rest. The better I eat, the better I feel mentally and emotionally. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you know, I, I specifically do things that take care of my physical health and my mental health. And I will tell you what I have learned is I need my own time out. You know, so now my daughters are one just is, um, a freshman in college. We just dropped her off and my youngest, Isabelle is going into 11th grade. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> and I deployed taking a timeout a long time ago mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And that is where I calm myself. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I regulate my breathing, I shut off all the distractions of maybe it’s music or social media or people talking and I just get centered. And so I would tell you most days it’s really good, but when I don’t work at it mm-hmm. <affirmative>, when I don’t invest in it, and when I ignore the signs that I know and have learned, I can spiral down in a second. And so it’s, it’s ongoing. Yeah. It’s an ongoing journey. One plus one isn’t two. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, it’s like five <laugh> or seven.

Natasha Tracy (11:30):

Right. You know? Yes. Yes.

Cara McNulty (11:31):

It is what it is. And instead, of I’ve learned along the way, instead of judging myself mm-hmm. <affirmative> and having critical feedback for myself, I lean in with empathy. Like, oh, hey, I gotta slow down.

Natasha Tracy (11:45):

Yeah.

Cara McNulty (11:46):

I often think about holding Isabel and how she needed just that care and feeding About literal nurturing. I think about that for myself. Like, oh, this is my body, my head and my heart saying it needs just some care and feeding.

Natasha Tracy (12:03):

Thank you for that. I think that so many of us show empathy for others and yet have no empathy for ourselves. But exactly what you said is what people need. We need empathy, the kind that we show for other people. We need to show it for ourselves as well. Who deserves it more than us. We do. Exactly.

Cara McNulty (12:22):

Exactly. And, and I would say, and Natasha, you know this well, that we have to, in order to change this narrative mm-hmm. <affirmative>, we have to show not only empathy and support and advocacy for people who are struggling all over, but we have to show them that we’re showing empathy and kindness to ourselves. Yes. That it’s okay. It’s really okay.

Natasha Tracy (12:51):

Folks, you are tuned in to “Snap Out of It! The Mental Illness in the Workplace Podcast.” I am talking with Cara McNulty, President of Behavioral Health and Mental Wellbeing at CVS Health, Aetna. We are talking mental illness in the workplace, and we’re gonna be talking about living up to your potential. Now don’t forget, if you have any questions for Cara, please pop them in the comment box and we may just answer them on air.

Natasha Tracy (13:16):

So, you said something to me, um, that the thing that gets in the way of people being their best is mental health. And certainly from my perspective, untreated mental illness is a huge roadblock in people fulfilling their potential. So, do you think your personal experience with mental illness, and you’ve already said it made you more passionate, so you feel like that has gotten you to a place where you can stand in the shoes of people with other mental illnesses, even when their experiences are vastly different?

Cara McNulty (13:47):

You know, I, I do and I, I would tell you that I think sometimes mental health or mental illness isn’t the primary factor. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you know, maybe it’s a cancer diagnosis that then brings up something else. Yep. That deals with our head and our heart. That mental and visible or it is a serious mental illness and it’s causing other things. Maybe you’ve lost a job or you’ve had, a breakup. So, they’re, they’re just all connected and, and you said so Well, I know neither of us woke up today and said, oh gosh, today I’m just gonna focus on my mental health.

Natasha Tracy (14:28):

That’s right.

Cara McNulty (14:28):

Today I’m just gonna focus on my physical health. We get up, we think about the things we have to do, where we’re going, what’s on our list, you know, life takes over. So there’s always that mental and physical, and I would tell you that yes, it has changed me. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I, I would be, uh, probably overstepping by saying I know what it’s like to walk in other shoes.

Natasha Tracy (14:58):

Sure.

Cara McNulty (15:00):

But what I would tell you is I listen different mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I solution a heck of a lot differently.

Natasha Tracy (15:07):

Yeah.

Cara McNulty (15:08):

And I work to empower people to share their story like you do so beautifully. Because when we listen and we can hear what is getting in the way, we then who are in positions to solutions and drive change, whether that’s policies or solutions or systems, can really deploy things that make a broader impact. And that’s important.

Natasha Tracy (15:38):

So, do you really feel that it’s an employer’s place to care about those struggling with mental illness at work? And if you do, what actually is the benefit to the employer?

Cara McNulty (15:50):

I absolutely believe that when you think about employers who are thriving, who are driving their impact, whether that impact is for social good or it’s profitability or it’s growth, whatever that may be, it is employers who are leaning into what cultural diversity looks like. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> and inclusion. And inclusion, a culture of inclusion is accepting us as humans as we are. The great things. We are the things that are a little rough around the edges. And, and our mental and physical health. And when employers do that, when they have that inclusive, diverse, empowering environment and culture mm-hmm. <affirmative>, guess what they do better? They have lower turnover. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, they have higher return in investment. They have greater profitability because you allow people not to have to be someone at home and then somebody different at work. And, you know, nobody wants to pretend. Everybody wants to show up and be who they are. And the reality is most of us have a family member, our own self, a partner, a parent, a loved one, a neighbor, a child that has a serious mental illness. Yeah.

Natasha Tracy (17:26):

Yeah. I mean, I said it was 20% of people with a diagnosable mental illness, and that is the number. So when you talk about one in five people, that means that if there’s five people in your workplace, and there probably are, at least one of them has a diagnosable mental illness. So of course it touches everyone. Of course it touches every family. Of course it touches every single workplace. I mean, it sort of seems like the obvious thing. And yet I think people often miss that really obvious thing sometimes.

Cara McNulty (17:55):

Right. And I, I do think Natasha, that people, um, you know, we know 20% have a mental illness, a serious mental illness, and we know that number is underreported.

Natasha Tracy (18:09):

Sure.

Cara McNulty (18:10):

When I think about black and brown communities and adolescents, we know that number is underreported often in workplaces and in that culture and that environment, I think people shy away. I’ve seen it many a time from the conversation, not because they don’t wanna address it, because I hear people say this to me all the time, what if I don’t know what to say?

Natasha Tracy (18:38):

Sure.

Cara McNulty (18:38):

What if I, what if I say the wrong thing?

Natasha Tracy (18:42):

Yeah.

Cara McNulty (18:42):

What if I hurt someone’s feelings? And the reality is when we don’t address it, when we don’t acknowledge it, when we don’t have the conversation, we’re we’re giving the message that it’s not important. We can’t talk about that here. It’s not safe. And it’s a worse outcome.

Natasha Tracy (19:06):

I think you’re also really giving the message that there’s something wrong with you if you have a mental illness because we’re not talking about it because we don’t wanna talk about what’s wrong with you. Like, I really think that’s the message. The message is really entirely negative, which is that if you have a mental illness, you know you’re broken in some way. And so we are not talking about that brokenness. And the other thing that I think happens all the time is that people with mental illness think they’re the only one because of this complete silence that so many people experience. And of course one of the things that happens in my writing all the time is I have bipolar disorder and people who read my work often have bipolar disorder and they go, oh my God, I can’t believe it wasn’t just me. And it’s never just you. I promise.

Cara McNulty (19:52):

That is, that is so true. It is in, in a community where we can be so engaged technologically and although the pandemic hindered our ability to socially engage, but we can, we can connect when we don’t talk, when we don’t normalize, when we don’t change the rhetoric around mental illness, mental health, mental wellbeing, we then even expand the stigma. And we do create environments where people feel completely alone, completely alone when there’s so many people who are going through something similar, might not be exact, but similar <laugh>.

Natasha Tracy (20:40):

And so, what do you think employers can do to help those struggling with mental illness other than say start the conversation. What else is there?

Cara McNulty (20:48):

Yeah. There’s so many exciting things that employers can do. And, and I’ll, I’ll start with what we at CVS Health have done. So we do, we have a lot of conversations, but conversation isn’t enough. No. It’s just not enough. No. So we do, um, things that I’m gonna say are, we started with the easier. So we developed a colleague resource group that is all about mental health wellbeing, including mental illness. That colleague resource group has been started just over a year ago mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And we had over 3000 members within the first couple of months.

Natasha Tracy (21:30):

Wow. That’s amazing.

Cara McNulty (21:31):

It’s amazing. And what’s so empowering is you hear people coming to those events and engaging, saying “this is the first time I have felt comfortable In talking about my partner who is schizophrenic.” Or “this is the first time I feel validated that it’s okay that I’m a brilliant employee and I also struggle with serious depression.”

Cara McNulty (22:02):

Sure.

Cara McNulty (22:02):

So, we started there really easy setting up a colleague resource group. It’s not enough. We also then said, this isn’t about what’s wrong and you, you’ve talked about it or what is broken we have worked to normalize that your head and your heart aren’t separate. So we talk about ourselves as a headfirst health company that we’re not thinking about your, your physical health separate from your mental health mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And that’s in everything we do. If you’re going into a minute clinic and you’re gonna see someone because you have a sinus infection or you think you have a sinus infection, we’re gonna ask you a couple of questions about your mental health because you know what, we don’t have to make it so people have to jump over hurdles to get support. So we even look at how we’re talking about mental and physical health together.

Cara McNulty (23:01):

So, we do that. The other thing we do is we really make it, we remove as many barriers as possible for people to get support that matters to them. And that started by doing a lot of listening, what are employees saying? What are they feeling, what are they needing? And that’s different than us just coming out saying, here you go, here’s what we’re gonna offer.

Natasha Tracy (23:28):

Right. Totally different. Yep.

Cara McNulty (23:31):

And so by doing that, then you design benefits and resources for all employees, whether they’re on your medical plan or not, that really focus on allowing people to be their best in the workplace and outside. So it’s everything as I talked about, from developing colleague resource groups to changing how we deliver care to how we talk about mental health and physical health, and even how we as leaders, um, work to share stories.

Cara McNulty (24:07):

To continue to normalize. There’s not a person probably in the country, maybe even in the world that, through a pandemic, hasn’t experienced some type of mental health disruption. Maybe it’s not a serious mental I illness, but maybe that’s where it came to life. But everybody’s experienced some disruption and it’s just a great way to take a moment to think, oh, this is really normal. I mean, maybe you experienced more stress with some anxiety, maybe you started drinking more. Sure. And maybe what came out is, a compulsive behavior and you were now diagnosed with a mental illness. I mean, there’s, there’s just so many things, but we can change the narrative with our words, but also with our actions.

Natasha Tracy (25:03):

Thank you so much. I think so much of what, you’ve said regarding what employers can do for people is so powerful. I know every employer can’t do that. Every single employer can’t do what you’re talking about. But what every employer can do is set up one of those employee resource groups. That’s something that’s doable for I think any employer. And changing the conversation. That’s something that people can do. And you know what, what I really like to say to people is, the next time you hear someone making a joke about mental health or mental illness, tell ’em it’s not okay <laugh>. It’s not okay.

Cara McNulty (25:38):

It’s absolutely true. It’s not okay. And we, we don’t joke about other things. Like we often joke about mental health. Right. And it’s really, it’s really important. Words, words matter. The other thing that employers can do, and many employers lean in, you have an employee assistance program.

Natasha Tracy (25:58):

Right.

Cara McNulty (25:59):

And oh, I, I want to advocate so dearly that employee assistance programs, they’re not the employee assistance programs that maybe your mom and dad had in the fifties and sixties. It isn’t the number you call because you think you’re gonna get fired. Employee assistance programs are really designed to help you meet the needs of what you’re experiencing. Whether that’s a physical need, a mental health need, it’s a short-term interaction counseling. Most employers have an employee assistance program. Right. And the unfortunate part is many people don’t use it because they think it’s not confidential. It has to be by nature and by how it’s set up. So lean into your employee assistance programs, they work.

Natasha Tracy (26:56):

So folks, this is “Snap Out of It!” And we are talking to Cara McNulty, the President of Behavioral Health and Mental Wellbeing at CVS Health-Aetna. We are still taking your questions, pop them into the comment box wherever you’re watching, and we may just answer them on air.

Natasha Tracy (27:13):

So, you’ve also said that voices with mental illness are suppressed, quieted, and shamed. Now, I couldn’t agree more. And unfortunately that happens all too frequently in the workplace. So, what do you think can be done specifically with regard to that issue?

Cara McNulty (27:31):

Yeah, I, you know, I think about, as a mother, it’s important that my own children know the struggles that I’ve had that I have to help normalize it.

Natasha Tracy (27:46):

Yeah.

Cara McNulty (27:49):

We live together, they see it, they know it. Now take that into a workplace. If we don’t normalize a conversation, I really can’t show up and be my best. So if I have to hide that, hey, I’ve had severe postpartum anxiety, I have anxiety, and gosh, I am able to do an awesome job. I am doing my best as a spouse, as a mother, as a daughter, a sister, and I’m not perfect If I can’t show up that way, they don’t get my best. They don’t get my best. And so the, it’s why we have to look at what are the services we’re offering people and not making it hard for people to get that support. I mean, you’ve talked about it, I talked about sitting on the floor. We have to make support so easy that people aren’t in crisis. You know, that we can, we can normalize this conversation. So, it’s really important that we as communities change how we talk about mental illness. That we as employers embrace that this is normal. This is part of who we are as humans, and that we work to listen to where are those voices being quelled. And I think about, you know, adolescents Young adults, LGBTQ population, often being quelled.

Cara McNulty (29:42):

Parents often are afraid to talk. Sure. And, and so we have to listen differently. Because when we do that and we’re open to the, the reality that this is normal then as employers, it’s not so scary. You get to empower instead of react,

Natasha Tracy (30:07):

Which is beautiful. You know, you said something that I think is so important that I wish employers and everyone else would take on board, which is, help needs to be so easy to get that you can literally get it from sitting on, when you’re sitting on your floor of your living room. It should be that easy to get help. And so I just wanted to do a quick plug for the new, suicide, prevention help line. And it’s 9-8-8 in the United States now. And it’s so important that people understand that if they need help of any sort, any type of distress, you do not have to be suicidal to call. You just dialed 9-8-8 and they’re gonna be able to help you. They’re gonna be able to listen to you and possibly get you resources that you didn’t even know existed. So, please remember that. Help is always there for you. It’s a 24 hours a day,, seven days a week service. So don’t forget.

Natasha Tracy (30:59):

So, I know that you and CVS Health have done many surveys of employees. So what do you think employees want from their employers when it comes to mental health and mental illness assistance?

Cara McNulty (31:12):

We have, we’ve done a lot of research. We’ve written quite a few white papers. And when you think about it right now, most of the workforce is feeling burned out.

Natasha Tracy (31:26):

Sure.

Cara McNulty (31:27):

We’ve experienced a pandemic, we’ve changed how we’ve worked. If you have children, you’ve not only worked maybe from home, but also been a teacher on the side. Life was disrupted. People are burned out and people want different benefits that meet not only their needs, but the needs of their family. And when I say family, I mean your ecosystem, whoever you consider to be your family. And that means, you know, maybe you don’t have children, but you take care of your parents or you take care of your neighbor. Employees want support for their ecosystem. They don’t want support just for themselves. Employees want flexibility. If there’s anything we know about mental health and your physical wellbeing, is that people need flexibility to be able to take care of themselves. Themselves in order to take care of their ecosystem and do their job their best.

Natasha Tracy (32:35):

Yes.

Cara McNulty (32:35):

So, we see employees really saying, I need, I need flexibility like a flexible work schedule. We also see employees wanting support with their social determinants. So think of, you know, maybe finding appropriate daycare, maybe your daycare closed and you can’t find daycare or you have an elderly parent that needs, elder care helping an, you know, helping the employee find elder care for their parent. It might be you’ve had a change in your financial status and that financial status, maybe you were two people working and now it’s a one person family that’s working. So, maybe you need some financial resources. So we see employees wanting support for themselves, support for their ecosystem mm-hmm. and support addressing their social determinants because it all is intertwined. And then last with that flexibility, employees don’t want us to address their mental health as if it’s not on our body.

Natasha Tracy (33:48):

<laugh> Yeah.

Cara McNulty (33:49):

Different from their physical health.

Natasha Tracy (33:51):

Right.

Cara McNulty (33:52):

You have to look at it together and there’s just so many, one of the great things of the pandemic is this complete infusion of venture capital backed investment to new mental health and mental illness solutions. Yes. And so employees want things that meet their needs, not this is, this is what we have, so this is what we’re always gonna do.

Natasha Tracy (34:20):

Yeah. I think that is so right. When it comes to things like flexibility and support, you know, in your life outside of work, you need flexibility and support. So, it makes perfect sense that you would need flexibility and support from an employer as well. Again, it’s one of those oh-my-goodness-of-course moments and yet we’ve missed it for years that that’s what employees are asking for and needing.

Cara McNulty (34:44):

Well it’s, it’s also the, the piece that ties in there is that people want to be themselves at work. Yeah. They don’t, they don’t want to come to work and now have to be somebody very different. And that hiding that not allowing people to be their full self, then we don’t get the best of people. And you know, what is amazing is the brilliance, the fierce, the quirky, the nerdy, the loving, the thoughtful, the innovative, that’s what you want and all of that. All of it.

Natasha Tracy (35:22):

I love that. And I think that if you just think about for a second what it would be like if we expected employees to hide the fact that they had a spouse or hide the fact that they had kids and what that would do to them at work. Because mental illness can easily play as big a role as a spouse or children. And so asking someone to hide it is like asking them to hide the fact that they’re married or that they have children. And that’s something we would never expect people to do, and yet we expect them to do it with mental health. So yeah. It’s important.

Cara McNulty (35:54):

Absolutely.

Natasha Tracy (35:55):

Now, we had a question come in from Elizabeth. What are some practical starting points for becoming more comfortable with conversations around mental illness both in the workplace and in all social spheres?

Cara McNulty (36:10):

Hmm. Great question, Elizabeth. I love it. One of the things that I talk to people all the time about is really taking the risk and having the courage to truly ask people, how are you doing? and I don’t mean Natasha that you and I are passing in the hall and I just say, Hey, how you doing? Right. I mean, the for real’s, legit, I see you or we’re working together, I’m asking you, Hey, how are you doing?

Natasha Tracy (36:45):

Mm-hmm. <affirmative>

Cara McNulty (36:47):

And I, I mean it, how are you doing? And, and the person knows. I mean it, you know, I mean it Right. When we are willing to do that and not worry about what the person is going to respond with. We open up a whole new conversation. And it doesn’t mean I have to have all the answers. Or that I have to be afraid. What it means is I, I need to listen without judgment and sit in support. So one of the easiest things we can do is ask people how they are and when they tell you they’re not good, have the courage to ask. When you say you’re not good, have you thought about self-harm? Have you thought about what it would be like to not be here? Right. You ask those questions, it’s pretty simple, but it’s hard to do in theory. Yeah. And you brought up 9-8-8 if someone were to say Yes, I have thought about that. Dialing 9-8-8with that friend.

Natasha Tracy (37:55):

Mm-hmm. <affirmative>

Cara McNulty (37:57):

Is thoughtful, is easy. Connecting that friend, taking that friend to an emergency room or to a care provider. Most of the time that’s not what the person is going to respond, but that’s the worst possible outcome. And guess what? Anyone can do it.

Natasha Tracy (38:16):

Yeah.

Cara McNulty (38:16):

Everybody has done things that are hard. Anyone can do that and it makes a difference. So it’s a great place to start. It’s a great place to start. And Elizabeth, having, you know, starting an employer or starting an employer sponsored mental illness or mental health colleague work group is a great way to also make an impact because it shows, hey, I am, I’m willing to engage in conversation.

Natasha Tracy (38:50):

Right.

Natasha Tracy (38:52):

Actually, the podcast was lucky enough to interview someone from Johnson and Johnson and they, this particular person did just that. She started a group for people with mental illness and it just blossomed. It grew exponentially, to the point where she couldn’t handle it herself anymore with thousands of people around the world. And it really does work, right. One person can actually make that much of a difference for a large company. And if your company is small, you can make that kind of difference for a, you know, for a portion of those employees as well. So you’re not powerless in this. And when someone says to you that they’re not doing well, the other thing that I really would say is try to,, try to resist telling them, oh, you’re fine. Right? Because the thing is, we all want everyone to be fine all the time, <laugh>.

Natasha Tracy (39:44):

And that’s a totally normal thing. Right? Someone says to you, I’m having a bad day. And you go, oh, don’t worry, it’s almost Friday. You, you negate what they’re trying to say to you because you want them to be fine. And I get this, I totally do. But when you want to talk about mental health, you want to try to just dial that back and say, oh, you’re not having a good day. Can you tell me more about that? That’s it. You just, instead of, you know, your own reflex, which is to say you’re fine, you just, you know, ignore that reflex and start opening a conversation that’s important.

Cara McNulty (40:16):

Oh gosh. That’s such a great point, Natasha. It’s so important because when we have the courage to say we’re not doing well, what we don’t want to have happen is to feel like someone isn’t hearing us. Like, you just have the courage to say, I’m not doing well. And, and we as the advocate and the asker need to be the listener. You know, and it’s okay not to be.okay. One of the things I I say often is when people say to me, if I can just make it to Friday or if I can just make it to my vacation. Right. Oh, we don’t, we don’t have to just make it. We don’t have to be in pain like that and we don’t have to do this alone.

Natasha Tracy (41:05):

Yes. Thank you for that. And I think we’re actually out of time so I do want to end it there for today, but I’d really like to thank Cara McNulty for sharing her experience and very specialized knowledge with us. And also I’d like to thank you the audience for listening. Please join me next week when I’ll be talking to Mike Veny, who is a keynote speaker, author, certified corporate wellness specialist, and someone who has experienced mental illness firsthand. He’s going to be talking, talking to us about how he has managed to become a leading corporate mental health speaker despite a mental health breakdown only five years ago.

Natasha Tracy (41:41):

Drop by the podcast’s website at snapoutofitpodcast.com and join our mailing list for more information. Snap Out of It! recordings are available on your favorite podcast platforms like Apple Podcasts and Spotify. If you find us there, we would love a review. And if you’d like to be a guest on Snap Out of It! check out our website and fill out the guest application form. Again, that’s at snapoutofitpodcast.com.

Natasha Tracy (42:07):

My name is Natasha Tracy. I hope you have a great week and great mental health.