Recorded: June 29, 2022

This week, Snap Out of It! The Mental Illness in the Workplace Podcast with Natasha Tracy is talking about attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) and binge eating disorder (BED) at work with Jason Hamburg. Jason is the Vice President of Neuroscience at Takeda Canada Inc. Jason wasn’t diagnosed with a mental illness until he was 44 years old, and he can attest to the fact that while he dealt with his mental illnesses in his own ways, those illnesses definitely held him back. Jason calls these illnesses impulsivity and compulsivity, and the difference in experience before and after treatment was striking.

ADHD and Binge Eating in the Workplace

Jason is going to be talking to us about what happens to people with ADHD or binge eating in the workplace, the illnesses’ effects on a lifestyle overall, and his own experiences with binge eating and ADHD. This is a conversation chock full of expert knowledge and patient experience. You don’t want to miss it.

The podcast is now available across podcast platforms:

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And elsewhere.

Unfortunately, due to technical sound issues, a live recording is not available. The above is our interview with clean audio.

About Jason Hamburg

BSC Biology, BEd (Secondary Science)

Jason Hamburg is an LGBTQ ally, mental health patient, and advocate for the millions of mental health patients who are challenged with their conditions each day. Having been diagnosed with attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) and binge eating disorder (BED) in his 40s, Jason has become a positive, knowledgeable voice and resource for patients and their families. He also recognizes the challenges associated with ADHD and BED in schools and in the workplace and aims to raise awareness and end the stigma associated with these conditions. Jason trained as a schoolteacher/corporate trainer and then moved over into the medical field, having spent much of his career working in the pharmaceuticals. Jason is currently the Vice President of Neuroscience at Takeda Pharmaceuticals. Jason joins the podcast series speaking from his personal journey in mental health and not representing his professional role at Takeda. 

Transcript

(This transcript is auto-generated. Please excuse the mistakes.)

Jason Hamburg (00:02):
Hi folks. Welcome to Snap Out of It! The Mental Illness in the Workplace Podcast with me, Natasha Tracy. Today, we are talking with Jason Hamburg, who is the Vice President of Neuroscience heading all commercial operations in neuroscience, in the areas of attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder and binge eating disorder at Takeda pharmaceuticals. But Jason doesn’t just work in these areas. He has personal experience too. Jason is going to be talking to us about his own experience, working with binge eating disorder and attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder, both before and after diagnosis.

Natasha Tracy (00:38):
I do want to remind you that this is a live stream. So pop your questions into the comment box, and we may just answer them during the broadcast.

Natasha Tracy (00:46):
But before we get to Jason, I just wanna remind people that while workplace mental health is very important, we’re actually here to discuss mental illness in the workplace. And these are not the same things. Twenty percent of people have a diagnosable mental illness, and that ranges from mild to severe, whereas a 100% of people actually have mental health. And we aim to shine the spotlight on the people with mental illness, because I feel like they are often lost in the conversation around mental health.

Natasha Tracy (01:15):
So, now for a little background about our mental illness topics for today, as I mentioned, we’re going to be talking about attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder, which is also called ADHD. When this illness occurs without hyperactivity, it’s just referred to as ADD according to the American Psychiatric Association, approximately 2.5% of adults in the United States have a diagnosis of ADHD. And while people previously thought that this only happened in children, we now know that ADHD does occur across the lifespan.

Natasha Tracy (01:47):
We’re also going to be talking about binge eating disorder. And the first thing to know about binge eating disorder is that it’s a real mental illness, and it is recognized by psychiatrists and the “Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders,” which is the book that defines mental illnesses in north America. According to Medscape Reference, binge eating disorder has been found to occur in about 3.5% of adult females and about 2% of adult men. Binge eating disorder can be as severe persistent and longstanding as other eating disorders.

Natasha Tracy (02:20):
Hi, Jason, welcome to Snap Out of It!

Jason Hamburg (02:23):
Thanks so much for having me.

Natasha Tracy (02:25):
So first off, tell me a little bit about you.

Jason Hamburg (02:29):
Sure. so my name is Jason Hamburg and I think you did a, a very nice intro. I work with Takeda, but I wanna be really clear that I’m actually here representing myself and my own. I guess my challenges over my life with mental illness not mental health, but mental illness. Yep. So I will be talking about my experience with ADHD and BED [binge eating disorder]. but I happen to work for a company that actually is in both of these areas and I’m proud of the work that we do and, and trying to get people the, the care that they need. I come from the east coast of Canada. but, but left there, you know, soon after high school did, my degrees actually started out in my, in my career as a high school teacher. And then I kind of fell into the pharmaceutical industry and I’ve been now in the industry for almost 24 years and worked my way up to where I am. But I definitely have always had a passion for mental health. it’s been something that’s afflicted folks in my family different forms of it. And for me definitely the discovery of my pathway to getting a diagnosis was, was really a lot longer than it should have been. But that’s a little bit about me.

Natasha Tracy (03:46):
So, speaking of your path to diagnosis, when did you start experiencing ADHD and what was that like for you?

Jason Hamburg (03:54):
Yeah, it’s a great question. I, I think, you know, when I think back I got diagnosed very late in life. However, when I look back, you know, and, and when they do a diagnosis with the physicians, they often will ask specific questions about your childhood because most people ADHD will or ADD, will present in childhood. And so they’ll often ask you, you know, what would your teachers have said about you when you were in school? And so when I look back now, I look at, you know, sort of what are the characteristics and definitions associated with diagnosis. And I would say I probably was ADHD back then, but I’m a little older than most people. So, you know, this was not really recognized back then, or it was a stigmatized. So people really didn’t talk about it, but I was your typical kid that was hyperactive. I tapped my, my leg all the time in class. I, you know, had trouble sitting back. And when questions were asked, I was a bright kid. I liked school. It was very social. I had trouble not answering questions or trying to, to, you know, answer, be the first to answer questions. I always wanted to rush to get my work done, but along the way, making errors that were unnecessary. I talked a lot to the people around me and I really found it very difficult for topics that I wasn’t interested in. It was a real struggle for me, but topics I loved and one of those being the human body, it’s always been a fascination for me, medical things, human body. It was very easy for me because it fell into my wheelhouse and I was able to focus. I think I matured faster than other folks in my cohort.

Jason Hamburg (05:36):
And I think that teachers saw me as, you know, kind of more advanced in many areas which is not kind of characteristic of ADHD, but because I was interested in more sort of the functioning of the school and things outside of academics, outside of the body, they got me involved in things that I was interested in. And so I did those things extremely well because I hyper focused on them. So things like running the cafeteria and, and I, I did a lot of extracurricular activities that others might not have done because they actually were of interest to me, leadership skills and, and that kind of stuff. So I think when I look back now, I I’ve probably had it all my life having not been diagnosed, I really feel it impeded my development in many ways, whether that be in academics or even in my work life. And, and I think, you know, we’ll, we’ll talk a little bit about those things further in the podcast.

Natasha Tracy (06:37):
Yeah. Thank you. You probably did have it as a child. Myself being, you know, a little bit older as well, I do remember when I was younger and the diagnosis of, ADHD was just, it was aschewed and made fun of, and it was said that it was bad parenting and lazy parenting and all that kind of stuff. Which of course we know of mental illness is not caused by parenting. That is not what causes ADHD at all. But when I was younger, there was certainly a feeling about that. So I know what you mean.

Jason Hamburg (07:12):
I was gonna mention that, you know, I think you bring up the, a great point in that, you know, it’s not bad parenting. However, from a genetic standpoint, , there is definitely a genetic pattern to ADHD and there’s probably, you know, a 60, 80% likelihood that if a child has ADHD, one of the parents gave it to the child from a genetic standpoint. And so the reason I bring that up now, and again, it’s part of my job. So I know a lot of this data and the statistics, the success of the family unit is very dependent on the fact that those who are ADHD in the family get treated because if one’s treated the child, but the parent isn’t and they suffer the, the disorder, then the success of that child is gonna be impeded because you just don’t have a structured environment and things are not gonna be as smooth.

Jason Hamburg (07:59):
So, I think there is a really important thing to recognize about familial components of, of diagnosis. And, and a lot of people also don’t think that that ADHD is a disease of adults, right. You know, it was a, it, it came much, much later that people recognize that. Yeah, for a, for probably 30 to 50% of kids, they grow out of it. Or, or maybe that’s a little high, but many carry ADHD throughout their life span. And so that’s been more recent that people really recognize it. And, you know, the one thing I would like to say is, is that young girls really get missed in, in things. And, and for that matter, those with ADD, as you said, in the beginning, there’s ADHD and ADD the H of the hyperactive is really easy to see, especially in a classroom for a teacher, but the little girl, or the little boy who are introverted, who you know, really don’t say a lot, they’re what we call inattentive type. They don’t really say much, but they’re actually big daydreamers, right? They’re thinking about everything else, but where they should be thinking at the time, because their focus is not on that. And so those diagnoses don’t get missed in, in, in childhood or in adolescence. And then they, those folks go on to adulthood when structure is no longer in their lives and they end up really in a bad situation. And then they seek out the, the help once they fall apart, which we shouldn’t, we should be seeing this much earlier because it would avoid that falling apart stuff.

Natasha Tracy (09:27):
Yeah, I agree completely. It is typically that is when someone seeks out a diagnosis for any kind of mental illness, once everything is outta control and they have fallen apart and their life has fallen apart and their family has fallen apart and the whole thing happens. And it is in the case of ADDm and ADHD, if it occurs in childhood, gosh, there’s just no excuse for us not catching it at some point, because that does save the adult. It saves the child and it saves the adult. So, yeah, that would be amazing.

Natasha Tracy (10:01):
So what effects did this have on your work life before your diagnosis?

Jason Hamburg (10:07):
Yeah, it’s a great question. You know, I, I think back now after I got the diagnosis and I’ll, I’ll say, you know serendipitously one of my best friends worked in the ADHD space and so probably nine years ago or so actually a little bit longer than that, you know, he always used to say to me, we’d be at the gym together and he’d say you are 100% ADHD. I don’t care what anyone says. And so I did seek out a, a diagnosis and I went to my GP and, and, you know, often the answer people will get from a general practitioner is you’re too successful to have ADHD, you know, like, look where you are. You’ve done so well. You’re able to focus on your job and all of that. And I said, well, this has nothing to do with that.

Jason Hamburg (10:52):
It happens to be that I love what I do, but I know there are definitely things about me that are absolutely attention deficit. You know, when I growing up and even into my adulthood, I was always embarrassed to say that I couldn’t read fiction books for the joy of reading fiction. Why? Because I would read a page and then I’d go down so far and I’d drift off. And I would have to go back up to the top of the page, the same when I was studying things, go down the page and then you’ go, what, what did I just read? If it was on the body? I was hyper focused on that. I wasn’t a typical adolescent or university student who was really into video games. It’s a very, very common thing with ADHD patients that they hyper focus on certain things that interest them, video games happen to be.

Jason Hamburg (11:43):
And I have my own theory about that in that, you know, we’ve created these games and these environments of virtual reality that are instant gratification. And so the brain is habitual. You’re, you’re feeding it and you’re getting reward from what you’re doing. And so those folks actually feed into that, that desire for that reinforcement. And so it’s a self perpetuating. The other thing is, is they play for long periods of time because to an ADHD patient, when you’re interested in something your whole concept of time disappears, you could be, think you’re doing something for two hours and it’s 10 hours later. You forget about eating. You forget about doing all those other things. And so, you know, I think that’s really important to distinguish. And when I didn’t get the diagnosis, initially I was frustrated and I said, you know, I went back to my friend and said, listen you know, this is not the way that it’s supposed to be. That GP is just, you know, sending you away because they don’t want to have to deal with it. And a lot of it has to do with the drugs that they prescribe. They don’t like to prescribe stimulants.

Jason Hamburg (12:49):
And, you know, I’d like to first say that drugs are not the be all end all to the, the treatment they’re very effective. Probably the most effective drugs that we have in medicine. They actually work immediately. They really have a high effect size. What do I mean by that? So eight outta 10 patients who take the drug will get what you see in the clinical trials. Whereas if you look at cardiovascular disease like hypertension or something, it could be as low as four to five patients get what you see in the trials. The other five get nothing from a drug. So it is, it is a very effective disease and it happens and is effective immediately. Unlike other diseases, you know, like depression, where you have to wait two, three months to see, and this is really important because a lot of times, you know, there are typical patients who go to get, get diagnosed. And the first inclination for a GP is you’re probably depressed. Right? And so we’ll put you on an antidepressant. Well, if it takes three months for it to work, obviously if you’re treating the wrong thing, then you’re not gonna get relief. And so then they go, well, let’s try another one. And then it’s another three months. And then let’s try another one. It’s another three months, you know, comorbid disease. It’s very often you can have both. And so you need to understand the chicken or the egg, which one is the underlying problem.

Jason Hamburg (14:05):
And many times it’s ADHD, which is the actual foundational problem. If you treat that that’s causing the person to be depressed because they’re not achieving their full potential. And so that is the sort of bad cycle that you get into. Yeah. And so, you know, I think that there’s a big responsibility of the medical community. They’re not teaching this in medical schools. Yeah. It’s, it’s so still way behind the mental illness is a lacking area and it needs to improve at the, at the medical school level, at least in my, my estimation and what I’ve talked to of, of people who sit in those faculties at those schools.

Natasha Tracy (14:42):
Yeah. And I have bipolar disorder and ADHD is highly comorbid with bipolar disorder as well. And, you know, heaven forbid you have both of those things because people don’t wanna prescribe stimulants to people with bipolar disorder because people with bipolar disorder often have a substance abuse history.

Jason Hamburg (15:01):
And interestingly, like you said, I, yeah, you have to be very careful in that situation. But one thing that really shocked me was I have always not been a good sleeper. That’s another characteristic of people who have attention deficit, you think, well, it’s a daytime disease. It’s where my brain’s going, but it doesn’t stop at night. Right. And so what happens is sleep clinics are now great areas to diagnose ADHD because people come in thinking they have sleep apnea. So they do this sleep apnea test and they find, well, you don’t really have sleep apnea. So what’s the problem. Sometimes what the problem is is that the ADHD is the problem. If you treat it with a stimulant, it’s counterintuitive, you think, well, that’s gonna ramp you up cuz it’s you think stimulant, but it actually improves your sleep cycle, which is really, you know, interesting.

Natasha Tracy (15:48):
Yeah. And I’m not saying that everyone out there should be prescribed stimulants. And I know that you’re not saying that either. I know nobody is saying that, but I do think that it is a crime when doctors automatically write off a choice for treatment based on stigma, based on misinformation, based on old teachings, based on a lack of information and all that stuff; that I think is a crime. You know, I’ve been to doctors, who’ve done that exact same thing where they’ve written off certain treatments and it’s not because of the real data, it’s because of all kinds of other factors that come in. And so it’s the same thing with stimulants. They are suffering right now from a huge issue and nobody wants to overprescribe stimulants, but nobody should want to underprescribe them either. Because like you said, they are very effective when they’re used properly. And actually in a couple of weeks, we are gonna have someone on the podcast who talks about being prescribed stimulants after having an addiction background. And she’s actually gonna talk about how she didn’t want that because she was so scared of what might happen if she was prescribed stimulants. So she’s gonna talk more about that and, and what happened for her. So yeah. Thank you for bringing that up.

Jason Hamburg (17:03):
Just to add to that, I would say 100 % stimulants and drugs is not the be all end all right? Cognitive behavioral therapy is a huge part of this whole thing. And life skills are a huge part of this. And this is another part of our healthcare system that is lacking. We, you know, parents need resources that will help them to manage their kids with it. We need resources in the workplace to help people who need accommodations for things that are affecting them in the workplace. And I think, you know, you would ask me what are the things that I noticed in my work life that, that are affected by it. And, and I really gave some, you know, significant thought to that. I think where it manifests for me is a few different places. I think in the workplace for me the whole concept of being able to, you know, your compulsivity and impulse control, I call that my edit function.

Jason Hamburg (18:00):
Okay. So one of the places that often made a problem for me was, you know, if I was in a situation, working on a team of people, someone might send you an email that caused you an emotional response to something. It could be, it sets you off in my old person before I was treated and learned how to, you know, accommodate and, and, and deal with that. I would be charged right up in an email and I would pop it off and then I’d get myself into trouble because my intent was never bad, but the way it came out was emotional in the moment. So that was one way that, that had really affected me in, in meetings, you know, just like in a classroom, you’re the first one to, to speak up. Even as you move up in, in the organization, you wanna give space to people who are more junior to you because they feel, you know, hierarchy is, I hate it, but it’s true. And they will be less likely to say things. I need to take a step back, but that’s very difficult if you’re not treated because your, your inclination and your ability to, to, to stop yourself is, is really difficult. You have impulse control issues there.

Jason Hamburg (19:10):
Also just on confidentiality, people will say things and then you blurt out something that’s kind of inappropriate and you go, oh God, I wasn’t supposed to say that. And then you can’t take back what, what happened. And then you can get in trouble on that side of things.

Jason Hamburg (19:24):
When I got into management, then I really saw some, some signs I used to meet with, with my direct reports. And I used to profess to them as we would have a one-on-one speaking, I’d be working on my computer on other things. And I’d say to them, you know, I’m really busy. I’m able to multitask. I am listening to you. The fact was I wasn’t multitasking. It was, I couldn’t pay attention to what they had to say either because I couldn’t focus on it. Or for whatever reason, it may have not been as important to me, but that’s not the point to the person in front of you. It’s important to them. Therefore you should be, you know, totally engaged. And, and so, you know, there were always managers of mine that I used to envy and say, you know, when I’m talking to them, I feel like I’m the focal point of, of what is being talked about. And that was not the reality with some of my direct reports. And so that would come out in performance reviews with my boss, or they would report it to me and say, you know, I’d ask them, is there anything I can do better? And they’d say, well, sometimes I feel like you’re not always there when we’re having our one on one. So those are the areas that I, I kind of see that it manifests itself and, you know, post being diagnosed, I do things quite differently now.

Natasha Tracy (20:40):
Yeah. And I think what you’re talking about there is career limiting moves, right? Like any one of those could literally have ended your career. Right. If you blurted out something that was confidential, that you shouldn’t have, that that could have ended your career at a company, right. A hundred percent. So that’s certainly something that, I mean that that’s not small detail, right. While ADHD is thought of as, I don’t know, a kid’s thing, it’s not that it can really harm anyone’s life if they’re suffering from it. So yeah. Thank you for giving us those examples. Those were great.

Natasha Tracy (21:15):
I do have some feedback for you.

Natasha Tracy (21:18):
Michael says, “Jason, thank you for sharing today. I appreciate you even more now.”

Natasha Tracy (21:23):
And Bohan says something similar. She says, “hi, Jason, thank you for sharing your story. You are very brave. And it takes a lot of courage.”

Natasha Tracy (21:32):
And Christina said, “awesome leadership, Jason, I won’t take it personally that you didn’t answer it. Email that I sent seven years ago.”

Natasha Tracy (21:42):
So it looks like you have some fans

Jason Hamburg (21:46):
Yeah, no, I, I, and I would say I appreciate anyone out there that has joined the podcast. I I’ve interacted with a lot of people through my career cuz I was a trainer. So I trained a lot of people that were coming through, you know, and, and you know, I, I have a lot of LinkedIn followers, so you know, anyone that’s on on there and you know, is, is joined. I thank them. And, and I really appreciate the Feedback.

Natasha Tracy (22:10):
So you are tuned into Snap Out of It! The Mental Illness in the Workplace Podcast. And we are talking to Jason Hamburg, an executive at Tekeda pharmaceuticals who deals with attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder, and binge eating disorder in his own life.

Natasha Tracy (22:25):
So, let’s turn to your binge eating disorder experience. When did you start experiencing binge eating disorder and what was that like for you?

Jason Hamburg (22:35):
Yeah, that’s you know, I, it’s a great question. I didn’t know anything about bingeing disorder until I started the current job I’m in. I didn’t have a clue. It even existed. I grew up in a, in an ethnic family who used food as a crutch for any kind of emotional sort of situations. And so weight was always a problem for me through my, you know, as long as I can remember, even through to, you know, a number of years ago when I started this job, I learned about binge eating disorder, you know, and, you know, it’s, it’s really sad because there’s only one approved treatment, which is the one that, that, that I know and that I work on.

Jason Hamburg (23:19):
But I actually was, was working with my own employees and I was in Montreal one week and I was actually doing what we call a preceptorship. And so you go in and you, you sit behind a, a kind of a one way window and you just observe doctors in, in an environment where they’re actually diagnosing real patients. And so it helps us to learn sort of what the day to day is and what the real challenges are for achieving a diagnosis. And this was a really a good clinic in laal who specializes in, in eating disorders. And so I sat there listening to the questions and listening to the patient that was in front of the person. And, and it’s very de-identified so we don’t know their names or anything, but I kept listening to what he was saying. And I’m like, that could be me sitting in that chair. That’s exactly, exactly what I experience. It’s, you know, I’m a typical person that goes to the gym, but never achieves the results that I always wanted to.

Jason Hamburg (24:20):
I had trouble saying “no” to food when I, you know, and when we talk about binge people have this perception that, you know, you go and you order 10 big Macs and you eat that. Yeah. That’s not necessarily my experience. And I don’t think it’s most, it’s more of a grazing disease in my experience is that we eat a lot of calories and a lot of food over a period of time. And it tends to be at night in the evening, the evenings are the most challenging. And the fact is that you could eat a little bit of that and a little bit of this and a little bit of that and a little bit of this, and it’s about the decisions you make. So instead of, you know, at 10:30 going to bed, the fridge, I always would say to my dad, the fridge calls me and it’s like, you know, there’s something sitting in there that, that I could either go to bed and cuz I really, I’m not that hungry, but I could go to bed, but no, it calls me.

Jason Hamburg (25:07):
And I, I akin sort of my, that feeling to being a cigarette smoker who needs to have that cigarette or an alcoholic who can’t say no to a drink, that’s the same as you experience in the food area. I think there’s a huge stigma around eating disorders. And the problem is, is you have anorexia, you have bulimia and you have binge eating disorder. Anorexia is a whole other issue with body dysmorphia. And there’s a lot of issues around not eating bulimia, you overeat, but you compensate mm-hmm so you throw up BED is sort of similar to bulimia, but there isn’t a compensation. And the big difference is you eat a lot of calories it’s you don’t throw it up. So you actually end up with more probably cardiovascular problems, obesity, things like that, not everybody, but but you know, most people’s body mass indexes are higher because of that caloric intake, but it’s the guilt the next day.

Jason Hamburg (26:09):
It’s the fact that you feel unbelievably guilty, that you didn’t have the willpower to say no. And so that eats at you and it’s a vicious cycle because then you’re feeding that feeling of being not able to do and not having the willpower, but what do you feed that disappointment in yourself with is food, right? So you’re back into that cycle again. So for me, that’s how I realized. And then I got diagnosed almost, you know, simultaneously with ADHD and BED. I was very fortunate. I, I ended up working in the area. So I went to somebody I knew mm-hmm would actually scream me properly. And then I was found to have both, and it’s the same treatment for both, which was very fortunate for me. And, you know, since starting the treatment for BED I’ve lost 80 pounds.

Jason Hamburg (26:59):
It was the easiest thing for me to, to do in my life because the medication isn’t, everything, you, you have to have strategies for, you know, how you deal with food. So you have to change your relationship with food. And that’s what BED is about, is a bad relationship with food. And then I took on different ways that I, I looked at working out in the gym and all of that, but safe to say, you know, am I where I, my goal is no, I’ve still got ways to go. Will binge eating disorder always be something that I worry about. Absolutely. You know, I fall back and then I have to catch myself and say, no, you know, so drugs are part of that plan, but the cognitive behavioral therapy is also again a big, big part of it.

Natasha Tracy (27:43):
Yeah. Thank you for mentioning that. I think that binge eating disorder is you might call it a new diagnosis in that it has been recently added to the “Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders.” So not everyone much like yourself is aware of that diagnosis. Right. And unfortunately, also it is a much maligned diagnosis, right? It’s just, oh yeah, you go to Thanksgiving dinner. And all of a sudden you have binge eating disorder, but that’s not what binge eating disorder is. Binge eating disorder has to do with a cycle and it has to do with repeating it. And as you said, it has to do with guilt. It has to do with a whole range of things that are certainly more than just going to a big Thanksgiving dinner. And it is not the case that everyone has binge eating disorder. It is not the case that everyone has that type of cycle in their life. It is, in fact, unusual. And that’s why it’s an illness. So thank you for putting that in such clear terms for everyone. I appreciate it.

Natasha Tracy (28:39):
So we do have a few more comments.

Natasha Tracy (28:41):
Lorraine says, “hi Jason. I was just diagnosed after joining Takeda at 52 years old. I totally agree with the profound impact of medication on my current life, kudos to you for being so authentic, transparent and vulnerable in telling your story.”

Natasha Tracy (28:57):
And Margaret says “so proud of you”

Natasha Tracy (29:00):
And Trina adds “great job, Jason, you are inspiring.”

Natasha Tracy (29:05):
And then Frank says, “you look great, Jason, thank you for sharing your story.”

Jason Hamburg (29:11):
Wow. So thank you to everyone. It’s, it’s flattering. It’s nice to know that you impact a lot of people through your, your travels of life. And yeah, the people I haven’t seen since you know, I’ve been at a couple of companies and I’ve been at the current company for five or six years. So people that didn’t see me over the last three years, I’ve gone through a pretty big transformation and you know, you run into people in an airport and they’re like, yeah, whoa, what happened to you? Right. And, and so, yes, I look older, but yes, a lot less of me to see.

Natasha Tracy (29:43):
So thank you so much to all the commenters guests and myself. We always love the feedback. So thank you so much.

Natasha Tracy (29:50):
Folks, this is Snap Out of It! And we are talking to Jason Hamburg, the Vice President of Neuroscience who works in the areas of ADHD and binge eating disorder. As well, he deals with them in his own life.

Natasha Tracy (30:03):
So, you’re clearly a driven and successful individual. I mean, you were even before you got your diagnosis, but now even more so, so do you attribute any of that to your mental illnesses? Or do you think that you’re driven and successful in spite of your illnesses is

Jason Hamburg (30:20):
Yeah, I, I, I think that’s an interesting question. I think first of all, I think ADHD folks who suffer from ADHD actually have probably an unlocked potential and probably access parts of our brain that folks who don’t have the disorder don’t. And so I think there’s a creative side of us. You know, I think in my work life, people have always said, you know, you tend to see things in the future that others don’t see. And, and I would say that’s probably true. I’ve always said that I’m kind of two things I’m evolutionary, I’m revolutionary evolutionary is that I take processes that are currently there and try to make them better. And revolutionary means, you know, do you see a future that doesn’t exist today that others may not see? And so I welcome challenge. I welcome change. That chaos is actually drives me.

Jason Hamburg (31:14):
And what I would say is, is that post my diagnosis and getting treated, I’ve gotten more promotions and been more successful in my day to day life with less sort of, we need to talk to you about this. You know, in my life, I feel far more confident. One of the, the two things, the comments I would make is I had very good managers. I was very lucky to have dedicated managers who in a way almost did behavioral, cognitive, cognitive behavioral therapy with me to kind of point out the areas that were my issues. And then I, I contracted with them. I asked them and said, you know, when you see these behaviors, tell me, right. Because if I don’t know, or I’m not aware, I can’t fix what I’m not aware of. And so I was very lucky to have people that worked with me.

Jason Hamburg (32:01):
Was it perfect? No, the does the medication absolutely help? Absolutely. The other area that I think was really a dramatic change for me was as you move up in the organization, there are many times you’ll get business challenges and you don’t always know the route that you need to go. It used to make me stressed out and with anxiety when I couldn’t see from a to B, and I know now many problems when you don’t know where B is, that’s okay. I can chunk it down and I don’t get stressed out. What, what it helps me do is to compartmentalize that it’s about the journey now, and that will I get there and will I figure this out a hundred percent? It takes that anxiety down. And I used to be a procrastinator. I used to leave, leave things right to the last minute that was regular.

Jason Hamburg (32:55):
I would get them done fairly well, but I would be up all night the, the, the night before that I’d need to get something in. So I, I induced on myself, undue stress that I didn’t need to. Now I’m able to one bring in other people and admit that I don’t have the, the answer forward. And that doesn’t stress me out. You, you know, you feel, you always have this feeling when you’re not treated and you have ADHD that you’re disappointing people, right? That’s, that’s a bad part of it because you’re underachieving and that makes you cycle in this depression, you know, like I don’t wanna disappoint anyone. And so now I think with all the things I’ve done, this is why my success has moved forward at a, a much more rapid pace. I, you know, I’ve been a region head I’ve, you know, taken on Canada, Europe, Israel. So, you know, these things I never dreamed would happen for me. And, and the cohort of people who went through at the same time as me moved up the chain faster than I did. And, you know, it just took me longer to get here, but I’m, I’m thrilled with the results.

Natasha Tracy (33:58):
And I think what you said there about disappointing people all the time is something that people who are not neurotypical. In a broad swath here do experience that all the time because you wanna be like everyone else, but can’t, you wanna think like everyone else, but can’t, you wanna achieve like everyone else, but can’t, and so you do get into this loop of just feeling like you’re a huge disappointment. Like you have all this potential, but you’re, you’re failing to unlock it kind of thing. And so, yeah, I, and it’s amazing that you would find a treatment and, you know, medication therapy and all the changes in your life and all the things that you’ve done that have brought you to a place where you no longer feel that way. And just consider for a moment, children feel that way, right. Children feel like they are failing every single day because of a mental illness. And that is the last thing you would ever want a child to then feel and take into adulthood.

Jason Hamburg (35:00):
Yeah. And, and, and many parents, you know, they get frustrated because they’re up against something that they don’t even realize, especially in the inattentive type, when you don’t see the hyperactivity, then it’s very hard for people cuz they’re not educated. So they don’t really know the manifestation of the disease. Well, when you’re up against that, it’s frustrating for the parent, the parent might be D or ADHD two. So that combination is really, you know, the cost to society of not treating this disease is astronomical. It’s in the billions, you know, it’s absenteeism from work. It’s, it’s losing jobs, it’s divorces, it’s custody battles. It’s, you know, incarcerations it’s re-offending it’s, you know, substance use disorder, all of these things are part and parcel of people feeling like they’ve disappointed people, not achieving in life and it causes a myriad of other issues. And so there is a massive cost to people and economics when we talk about,

Natasha Tracy (36:02):
And I just wanna mention, you said absenteeism, which is absolutely something you see with mental illness, but there’s also presenteeism, which is an issue where the person comes to work and they don’t actually do what they’re supposed to be doing because they’re so sick because of whatever’s going on in their life. So in this case, a mental illness, so that’s called presenteeism and that costs companies even more because the people can’t afford to take time off work typically. And so they’re sitting in their seat and not actually producing the way the company needs them to produce, but they’re there. And so somehow that’s better, but of course that’s not in any way better. All that does is cost people, money quietly, very silently. It costs people money. So yeah, that’s a very big deal.

Natasha Tracy (36:44):
I know that you weren’t diagnosed until you were 44. How do you think that other people can avoid being in that situation?

Jason Hamburg (36:55):
I think the, the biggest thing is people need to be your own health advocate. That goes for every disease, for anything in our system. I think the Canadian system is great because we have a, a socialized model. We all have access to hospitals and doctors. Pharmacare is another issue that you could take and you could debate access to drugs is really important. But people need to advocate when you don’t get the answer you need and you’re not getting a GP or someone. And we know that right now, our healthcare system is in crisis with the fact that we don’t have general practice. It, it, we don’t have enough physicians for our, our own people who live in Canada. Nurse practitioners are gonna be a big part of this equation. So nurses are very competent. And in fact, in some ways I think they run the system you know, they’re, they’re very knowledgeable, but we have a real void in that.

Jason Hamburg (37:53):
And, and you don’t need necessarily, unless you have complex disease, a psychiatrist to diagnose general ADHD or BED. You know, these are things that can be done by a GP. And in fact, GPs, you know, when we look back, go 30 years ago, you know, psychiatrists diagnosed depression, but then GPs thought, you know, this is a part of our mainstay and we’re gonna have to learn this and we’re gonna have to do this well now I believe ADHD is on the same trajectory as that is that it will become part of those comorbid diseases. And when I was a kid, nobody talked really about anxiety. Now, every second kid you talk about, you know coming through the system in high school or in university has some sort of anxiety disorder. At least it feels that way. And we didn’t talk about that, but GPs are comfortable now treating both depression, anxiety, ADHD needs to be brought into that conversation of mental health. And you know, it, it doesn’t help when you have great initiatives like bell let’s talk. And we talk about mental health day and it, it brings in great money for research, but it’s missing some of the other mental disorders. It’s not just about depression, anxiety. And so I think, you know, that we need, we can do better on, and we need to elevate the recognition of, of mental health in general, and that this needs to be talked about. And, and people need help.

Natasha Tracy (39:15):
Yeah. One thing I will just add to that is while a GP can diagnose something like depression or anxiety, or in this case, ADHD often they’re just not good at it, right? So some GPs are great, right? There are many people out there who are in the system who are amazing and who are great at their job and who can diagnose successfully. But if you run up against someone, be it a nurse practitioner or a GP or anyone who looks at you and says, you don’t have it go away. You need to stop and say, well, I need a second opinion because that person, maybe just isn’t capable of seeing what you know, to be true and what actually is true in your life. So yeah, there are great GPs out there, but there are some terrible ones that you need to avoid as well. So don’t take any one doctor’s opinion as gospel, because so often you do need to talk to someone else in order to get the right information for you and you had to do it too. So yeah, you would know.

Jason Hamburg (40:16):
Yeah. And, and I would say coming outta COVID has been an eye-opener, right? Because mental health has never been talked about as much as it has in the last year to a year and a half with COVID, you know, this, nobody could have ever expected, we’d be in a global pandemic. And you know, what, what we’ve learned now is mental health is important and, and people are really struggling and we need to deal with it. The problem is, is the backlog to see a psychiatrist in many provinces can be up to 18 months. Well, that’s not gonna work for people. And so, you know, what I would say is I think, you know, the, the ability to have online resources for diagnosis and treatment and being able to do it from your home for a lot of people is a huge help to not have to travel and the expenses around that and taking time off work and that you, we can do things, you know, sort of more efficiently.

Jason Hamburg (41:07):
I’m not suggesting that diagnosis is easy online. I think, you know, everyone’s learning how to do these things and trying to test the waters there. But I think online resources will help somewhat because it doesn’t matter where the doctor sits. You know, if I’m in a remote community in the north and I can’t don’t have access to the care, but I can’t fly down because I don’t have those resources. Everyone should get equal access to care. And that will be the way that we kind of get there. That even in big cities, you know, people who don’t have a GP yeah. Don’t have a GP and going to a walk-in clinic, forget it. You’re never going to mental health is not something walk-inclinics deal with. They deal with colds and, you know, tonsillitis and, and those kind of things, but mental health. Isn’t a part of that.

Natasha Tracy (41:50):
So, I have a couple more comments for you.

Natasha Tracy (41:53):
Kaylee says, “Jason, seeing your success in career life has inspired more belief in my own potential. I was diagnosed only after my kids were diagnosed a few years ago in my late thirties. I’m grateful to have met you. Thank you for sharing your story.”

Natasha Tracy (42:09):
Lorraine also adds, “I do not perceive myself as ill. My biggest concern before I started medication was I didn’t want meds to change the way I am, which is unique. And I did not wanna lose that self. Now. I can be the best version of me, however, nothing and not medication nor therapy can ever make my brain work like a non ADHD brain, but the world needs all kinds of different brains. I am still forgiving myself for my past choices, however.”

Jason Hamburg (42:53):
Yeah, I think that’s, that’s so, so true and yeah, you wanna be you, but the best version of you. I love that. And, and that is true. I feel like I’m the best version of myself now, you know, doing the things I’m doing and I’m making choices to improve things that I wouldn’t have improved before, because I recognize them. I, I, I’m able to, to stop and take a look within and how do I, how do I keep on this, you know, positive journey. And I’m, I’m kind of a crusader now because I, I look at people around me and I go, you know, this isn’t about a drug and getting you on a drug. You know, there are many people who are very anti pill. You can be all of those things. What I’m more worried about is people who lose the potential that they could be.

Jason Hamburg (43:39):
And when I see it, it saddens me that I know my journey and how long it took me. And yes, I, I, I’ve been very fortunate, but so many others are not. If you just happen to not be able to figure out what you’re really interested in, a lot of people end up being quite lost. And interestingly, I think that there are many occupations that kind of self-select for people who have ADHD, you know, things where there’s a lot of structure. When I think of Olympians, for example, people who devote themselves day in and day out for that, you know, one opportunity every four years to compete. Those are people who are hyper focused on one thing. You know, I have a theory and never proven, but there are many, you know, that you look at and you go, these people fall apart when that Olympic experience is done, they fall apart because they don’t have that hyper focus and structure in their life. The same in the military can be another example of that. So I think, you know, people seek out the structure, but many that’s not, that’s not their interest. And so they, they kind of flounder and we need to be better at recognizing and helping people to figure out what is your interest, because that’s the key to unlocking where you need to go.

Natasha Tracy (44:54):
And then one final thing. Margaret says I love the title of your series.”

Natasha Tracy (44:58):
Thank you. very much Margaret. I, it took me a long time to come up with it. There were many draft titles that did not make the cut. yeah, I love it.

Natasha Tracy (45:07):
So a couple of questions for you that came in.

Natasha Tracy (45:10):
So, Laura asks, “do you still feel the need to binge every day? And do you consider binge eating disorder to be like an addiction?”

Natasha Tracy (45:16):
I think the second part you addressed, but how about the first part?

Jason Hamburg (45:21):
Yeah, I mean, definitely an addiction in, in many ways. Do I still feel the need? Absolutely. Like not every day, you know, I think the medication helps I will say that because the evening time is the time that is the most challenging with binge the medication you generally take in the morning. If you’re, if you have a long day, medications will start to wear off. And so you’ve gotta figure out what’s best for you with your physician in consultation. So you wanna make sure that your medications, you know, stay working for the times when you are most challenged, the behavioral stuff is to understand what drives the emotional part of why you seek food to drive that. So the answer is I still struggle with it. I always will. And the days when I’m not doing as well, the next morning, I feel that guilt, it will never go away. It always is there.

Natasha Tracy (46:13):
And then Margaret asks what can we, what can a company do to maximize the potential of employees that live with ADHD?”

Jason Hamburg (46:23):
Yeah, I mean, that’s a great question. And, and I often think of these things spec specifically with my team employees of mine, I think organizations need to recognize these disorders and need to, you know, give access to people that can help EAP programs in companies. You know, employee assistance programs often are used, you know, when someone’s in crisis, it’s, it should be not when you’re in crisis, it should be what are the day to day things that, you know, life, things that can help me and, and many EAP programs need to be trained, to recognize when someone might be directed to seek help and where to get it and that, and strategies around life itself and how to, how to deal. I think accommodation in, in the workplace is really, really important. You know, we, we seem to be moving towards this hybrid model of work, which I think is great for ADHD folks because you know, a lot of ADHD folks, sometimes the workplace environment, many are cubicle driven offices.

Jason Hamburg (47:25):
And I think more and more are taking less space. You hotel, you have to sit in different desks, you know, having, you know, a, a definite sequence of events and, and sort of familiarity is good for ADHD patients when you make it different all the time and distraction. So, you know, you’re sitting there and people are on phone around you, and it’s very hard to kind of focus on what you’re trying to do. ADHD folks also need sometimes more time to complete things. So you gotta kind of account for that when you’re expecting things from them. And I would say, you know, everybody expects people to walk into the office and everybody has problems, you know? And so for me, I made active choices through my career that no matter what, what was challenging me, I would always smile at work. So if I didn’t smile, someone would say, oh my God, something’s wrong.

Jason Hamburg (48:15):
You know, you’re not the, the cheery Jason that we know many people struggle. I was lucky that I can put that face on, but many people don’t. And so you need to also, as a manager, you need to recognize and say, you know, this isn’t just about the employee and work be human resources compliant in what you say, but show the interest that you’re interested in the whole person, not just the work person and understand that you need to unplug from work at different times, and that timelines need to be adjusted for, for people’s accommodations. And I think workplaces need to do that. And they need to put in programs to destigmatize mental health, you know, just, you know, making programs that are very recognizable that are part of HR or part of, you know, the vernacular of the organization. I work at a company because we do mental health, that it, we’re very fortunate cuz it’s very top of mind and we’re very supported, but many organizations are not. I think of, you know, many people who work in, you know, hourly rate jobs and, and whether it’s in, you know, the service industry, these places have no accommodation for people with ADHD. And when you’re having a bad day and there’s tons of distraction and people are yelling at people, this is a recipe for disaster. And so understanding and recognizing it, you may have the best employee, but you’re not getting the most out of them because of the things you’re doing. So that’s what I would say about that.

Natasha Tracy (49:45):
I love that you may have the best employee of the world, but you’re not getting the best out of them because of what you’re doing. You know, one of the points of this particular podcast is to say, there’s all of the mental illnesses in your company right now. You’re not just dealing with a person one-off who’s anxious or a person on- off who’s depressed. No, you actually have all of the mental illnesses, you know, there at, you know, in some way, either because an employee has them or their child has them or their partner has them, but they’re all there. They’re all represented in some way. And we need to stop looking at it like that person’s an automaton and we only care about them from nine to five, they do their work and go home because their home will drift into their work. And certainly our brains drift into our work. I think that’s pretty obvious. So when your brain isn’t working quite right then your work isn’t quite right either. Thank you for saying that because you can have the best people, but you need to treat them in a certain way in order to get that out of them. So thank you.

Natasha Tracy (50:50):
And I think that is where we’re going to end it for today. I’d like to thank you, Jason Hamburg for sharing your experience and insight with us. I know you speak for a huge population of people who struggle with these mental illnesses at work.

Natasha Tracy (51:03):
So, join us the same time next week, when I’ll be interviewing lawyer, Jullia Stephanides. She is going to be talking with us about lawful employment practices with regards to disabilities, like mental illnesses. If you are wondering what your rights are or if you’re wondering what you should be doing as an employer, this is the episode for you.

Natasha Tracy (51:21):
Drop by the podcast’s website at snapoutofitpodcast.com for more information.

Natasha Tracy (51:29):
Snap Out of It! Recordings are available on your favorite podcast platform like Apple Podcasts and Spotify. And if you do find us there, we would love a review.

Natasha Tracy (51:39):
And if you’d like to be a guest on Snap Out of It!, check out our website and fill in the guest application form. Again, that’s snapoutofitpodcast.com.

Natasha Tracy (51:48):
My name is Natasha Tracy. I hope you have a great week with great mental health.