I give presentations on mental illness in different places, and one of those places is in schools. Kids aged 12-18 get to hear about mental illness, stigma and my personal story of bipolar disorder. This takes around an hour. And after hearing an hour of me speak about my personal challenges and about how I have faced down bipolar disorder are a myriad of treatment failures, the teens often feel a certain closeness with me. I suspect it is for this reason that after the presentation, so many of them come up and talk to me. They talk about how they have been in the hospital or how they have a friend with bipolar or that they think they might have a mental illness.
And, of course, if a teen thinks they have the symptoms of a mental illness I always say, “Have you talked to your parents about this?”
And I always expect them to look at me like I just said something ridiculous because when I was their age, I sure would have found the notion laughable.
But they generally don’t. Many, many of them have, indeed, talked to their parents. And what have the parents done?
Nothing.
Their parents have done nothing.
The parents have said that they don’t believe the child or they have brushed away the subject as if it were permission to get their ears pierced. So now, the child, clearly in pain, some of them, in fact, crying, is standing in front of me, wanting to know what to do.
My Child Doesn’t Have a Mental Illness
I think that when parents look at their child they see something other than a person. I think they see a miracle. Or a burden. Or a mistake. Or perfection. Or whatever. The parent sees a child, not like a person, but like a ball of emotion. In the case where the parent thinks that the child is a miracle they can’t imagine that miracle sullied by an illness so of course their child couldn’t have a mental illness. In the case where the child is viewed negatively, they likely don’t care enough to bother with the feelings of the child – feelings they assume are not important or are not real.
And every parent (at least every one I’ve ever met) likes to think of themselves as a good parent. And parents take it as a personal insult to suggest that their child might have a mental illness because parents conflate their child’s lives with their own. They also assume that if the child has a mental illness then it must mean that they did something wrong as a parent – and parents rarely believe that they do such a thing.
[And, of course, it’s important to note that a child’s mental illness is not a parent’s fault. This, however, is not necessarily common knowledge.]
Children Don’t Have Mental Illnesses
And all of that doesn’t even take into account all the parents who don’t believe in mental illnesses or who don’t believe that children can experience mental illnesses or who just don’t believe in doctors period.
In short, if a teen feels like he or she has a mental illness they, very often, have a very steep, uphill battle to climb at home.
Parents that Don’t Help a Child with a Mental Illness Anger Me
This angers me to no end. It angers me that a child will approach and stand, crying, in front of a stranger, basically, begging for help, all the while their parents have been told of the problem and done nothing. The parents just made it worse. The parents just perpetuated the pain. Having a mental illness is scary. It’s terrifying. But to then have it ignored by the people who are supposed to love and protect you is heartbreaking.
Of course, my job (which is to say, not that I get paid for it but that I’m a human being with a soul), is to try and ensure that the kids get help because now, we, strangers, have to work around the parents instead of work with the parents to ensure the child’s wellness. I am left following up with a child who desperately needs help but I can’t do what the parents should have done. I can’t walk the child into a doctor’s or counsellor’s office. But his parents could have. His parents should have.
And all because their own egos wouldn’t allow them to admit that their little “perfect” child was sick. It disgusts me. The parent wouldn’t dare not treat a child for cancer, but a mental illness? Sure, that they ignore. I want to take these children in my arms and make sure they get better because I sure don’t trust the people who were actually put on this earth to do it.
To Parents – Children Can Have Mental Illnesses – Get Them Help!
So my message to parents is this: if a child comes to you and starts talking about symptoms of an illness – any illness – seek professional help. A child’s pain is every bit as real as an adult’s and when they’re standing there crying, and clearly scared, because they recognize there’s a problem; this is not something that should ever be brushed aside. They are reaching out. And for you, not to reach back with real help, is a travesty that could easily end in a tragedy.
Because it could be your child. Or mine. Or anyone’s. Get over your own stuff and accept it, for the sake of your child.
I was the enigma child in my family. This period was in the fifties. My father was a medical person and realized I needed help, and he made numerous attempts to untangle my confused but often precocious behavior – to no avail. Drugs at that time were inadequate, as were a proper diagnosis. A manic depressive disorder for young people was not considered at the time. Instead the extremes were applied, both in diagnosis and prognosis. If I suffered at all it was because I was acting out delusions that were beyond control. A child with special needs is often ignored by the public school system, or harshly managed by private schools. My only regret is having to use my personal resources to manage my ‘self’ – those energies and abilities that would have offered me a completely different life, one with more success than failure, and a better sense of self esteem. Getting on this planet is in itself a gift or a ship you sail with or against the winds of time and purpose. This is my opinion from a lifetime of experience with a bipolar disorder.
As a parent of a primary school child with a neurological disorder and behavioural issues I have spent the past five years trying to get help for him. I have taken him to various therapists, spoken to many support organisations and specialists, attended workshops and parenting programs, even agreed to medication. (Most of which come at not insignificant financial cost.) After all this time I’m left with the overwhelming feeling that when a child has issues, the parent is blamed for those issues. Especially by the school they attend. Despite, in my case, having three other well-adjusted neuro-typical children. Most recently I’ve been asked to attend a workshop on mental illness. Me, because apparently I’m the one who is expected to sort it all out despite not having any formal qualifications and education only which I have sought out myself. It has been a constant battle and one I feel everyday like I’m losing.
What is your experience of getting help for a mentally ill child Natasha? There’s a list of organisations and contact numbers elsewhere on your site but have you ever tried to contact them as a parent and say you need help for your child? My son, young as he is, would also most likely tell you I do nothing when he asks for help. The truth is I don’t know how to help him anymore.
Parents don’t see their children that way, they see them as part of themselves instead, as an object that they own. They don’t see their child as a separate entity to themselves, with their own unique emotions, wants, needs etc. Parents are notably selfish.
I’m a mum, and you know what? As a parent, stood with other parents at the school gates, I’ve been bullied for having a mental illness (Bipolar and am in recovery from anorexia), so of course they are not going to believe their children if they say they are having issues, because they don’t and wont believe it, because “My child will never be like that”. It’s utter ridiculousness, and why I wasn’t diagnosed until my late twenties, despite having severe episodes of mental illness.
My child, who is 10, suffers really badly with panic attacks, she’s suffering a lot lately, and had to cancel plans on a few occasions because she just wasn’t well enough to go.
After her first panic attack, I took her to the GP, and here lies the other issue, he thought I was being neurotic, he said that to my face, and decided that I must be mentally ill to suggest that my daughter might need some help. She’s been sent home from school on several occasions, and no, I wasn’t looking for them to label her, I was looking for some help, like maybe a therapist or something to help her find some coping strategies.
Luckily, as my mental illnesses are quite severe, she is classed as a child carer, and thankfully has a case worker, my little one had a panic attack in front of her which was the evidence I needed to get her into mindfulness sessions. She’s still having panic attacks, but she knows exactly what to do when she has one now, and I feel better because something is being done! I don’t want her to be like me, and go through her whole life thinking that people didnt give a damn.
So there are some good parents out there. Just need our doctors to stop calling us all neurotic.
Wonderful article about such an important topic. Lucky for my kids that I haven’t been the kind of parent that you are discussing, but I am also a school teacher and I see the impact of this all the time. The other aspect I run into frequently is parents who get the wrong or inadequate help for their child, blame the child, see it as willfulness, and fail to educate themselves about their child’s illness. Educating themselves about mental illnesses is the number one thing they can do to help. Too often parents react passively or defensively, as if they think their child’s mental illness is because of something they or their child did. Educating people that mental illness is a no fault disease is so vital. Thanks for speaking out.
My poor parents ended up with 3 mentally ill children. My mother has since died, and I’m only finding out now that, at least for one of us, the school had several times had called and said my sister needed help. They also called twice about me. My parents knew there was a slew of mental illness on my dad’s side, yet they did nothing until my sister, at 19, became so psychotic her actions landed her in the local news. I realize my mother thought she could just handle things herself, but it would have been so much better for us if we’d been diagnosed in our teens, not at 23, 25 and 24. Then we were all misdiagnosed. I was 32 when I was finally diagnosed correctly, and by that time I was completely disabled from working. My younger sister was, as well. My youngest sister is struggling, at 39, to keep working when she has an autistic son and toddler, and she is so overwhelmed I don’t see her lasting much longer. My own son, who is also autistic, was diagnosed yesterday with bipolar disorder. He is 16. His pdoc suspected bipolar, but had to wait until this visit, the 4th, in which he could clearly see my son was hypomanic. While this is devastating news, I also have hope. My children have been in therapy since they were very young, because I wanted them to learn how to cope with a bipolar mother and also to have a professional keep tabs on them. The result is that my son is being treated for bipolar disorder at 16 instead of 32. It’s far easier to deal with an illness than pretend it doesn’t exist, or that the child is misbehaving, or that it will just go away, or thinking I can handle it alone. Any idiot now knows that mental illness is real and that kids can get it, with all the awareness that is out there today. But not everyone has that kid of common sense.
This couldn’t be more true for me. I will never forget being about 7 or 8 and telling my mother, “I’m depressed,” and all she responded was, “no you’re not.” While I don’t think every parent understands enough to get the help, I think it is the saddest thing and one of the biggest ways we can disappoint our children. Even now at 27-years-old my mother doesn’t like hearing me say I’m bipolar, even though my father, her husband, has it and is treated for it. It’s very frustrating when you don’t get the acknowledgement you so crave and need. But I forgive my mother because I think, sadly, some people are just ill-equipped to deal with people with mental illness. Thanks for your posts, your blog has recently become my saving point for understanding!!
my first manic episode was when I was five years old. I was always hyperactive though but I would stop sleeping every summer. When I hit puberty it wasn’t as predictable and I seemed rapid cycling then because the hormonal changes were extreme enough. I seem to do the best on an amphetamine and an anticonvulsant medication long term. I think my age of onset is what makes my meds odd though. It boils down to carelessness and empty headed hyperactivity or my mind literally taking me over.
Until I had a psychotic breakdown in 2007 after spending 2006-2007 completely manic, I didn’t really take bipolar disorder seriously because I grew up like that and I always associated the meds with being zombified and not liking life. I didn’t care about ADHD at all either. I had a rough run with attempting SSRIs and Tricyclic but the psychiatrist had my childhood chart and adult chart prior to that and I did the best the longest on Dexedrine and Lamictal at different periods and thought, we’ll try this combo and it has helped be a platform to create a stable, healthy way of life and kept me stable.
I too have many problems sleeping in the summer. Increased light with me and less sleep.
The chemistry experiment of uppers and downers is an interesting one. Funny thing is is that they work often. WN
, im 17 years of age. I have been suffering from bi polar for 3 years now im currently seeing a psychaiatrist!!! i go to sleep everynight ( when i can sleep ) thinking do i want to wake up! Why am i here on this planet i HATE my LIFE? The stress i have put my parents through every day for the past 3 years is what makes me fight i will not stop fighting. I cant and wont stop? Thier are days when i am on a really high buzz happy everythings you know allgood and then one little thing flicks a switch i get really pissed off and upset? Thier are those days were i think to my self i cant do this im tired to tired to even fight anymore. But the pain the stress i put my parents through my family through is my motivation to keep fighting because i know that thier will be a day in the future were i can stand up and say i have fought my last fight i have beat bi polar dissorder? So after all that you guys have read i just want to say a BIG thank you to all you parents who are like mine and are trying your very best to support your children through this struggle like mine are doing for me? #stand up and beat bi polar! I want my life to change this dissorder to be gone and one day i can say i beat bi polar and be my self again
I’m not sure I understand how the stress you have put your parent’s through motivates you to stay alive. You said it twice and with force.
Am I right in saying your parents go on and on telling you how much stress you put them through? If not please ignore. That was my case when younger. If you are bi-polar or have another mental illness then it is not your fault and you aren’t putting your parent through anything. It’s an act of nature and they should feel a bit of shame in saying you are putting then through anything. You are the one who is ill and what you go through is far more then anything your parent going through.
In no way should you or your parent blame you. You may wish to talk to others or try to get help. If you are gifted with money pay cash privately and say you are 18 and give a phony name.
If not then you are in a bit of a tough spot on many levels. If you wish to be a Dr., teacher, in the military, scientist and MANY MANY other professions you will be risking that future by talking to ‘professionals” about it. You as well may be risking your freedom and possible intimidation by police (they will lead you to believe otherwise). Always remember the police are LEGALLY able to lie. The professionals as well will routinely lie to you as well. This is problem. To save your life you may have no choice. Good thing is many can be helped. Some can’t and you will have to wait or live out your days dealing with that or waiting for better treatment and drugs.
Good luck Ryan and read, read, read. Then read some more. Not bs online either or bs through others and popular psychology. Go to the library and get some good books from good Dr’s and good scientist and never ever stop reading. WN
A huge problem in the case of Bipolarity is the parents’ own denial.
Since it has been established that Bipolar Disorder has a significant genetic component I started asking about my dad who died when I was young.
Sure enough – I heard stories from my mum about how he would occasionally go to bed in tears for three days at a time and be inconsolable. I already knew the stories of him that would fit hypomania. Irritability, violence, determination and grit.
My paternal grandmother was a lovely woman. I barely have memories of her. When asking about her in the context of bipolar behaviour I learned that she was a terribly addicted gambler, and would steal from anyone to fund her habbit. She would periodically just BELIEVE that she was going to win, no matter what.
In the case of where I come from (Yorkshire) the previous generations are almost entirely uninformed about mental illness, but worse than the ignorance is the propensity for wholesale denial in the event of a diagnosis. My dad would NEVER go see the doctor about his episodes, my mother didn’t push it.
We’ve all heard phrases like “Oh, H&J?! Yeah, He’s a real card. He’s really funny!” or “X has a short temper, watch out”, “So and so is a miserable drunk, don’t let him drink too much”. Things like this that can be symptomatic of mental illnesses like Bipolarity are excused as elements of our character by default. Where I come from, they are so readily excused that EVERY element of Bipolar I showed was completely ignored or explained away. It took me travelling to the opposite side of the world and meeting, by chance, someone who had a decent knowledge of mental illness.
Even if my parents had known about Bipolar, because of their upbringing – their first response would be denial. I would NEVER have been prompted to seek medical help had I stayed at home. I would never have achieved diagnosis unless it had been a posthumous one – I sincerely believe that.
Earlier and shameless education is needed. More education and a real effort to combat the stigma of illness is the only way that kids will feel confident enough to approach a doctor without guilt and seek help.
All the best,
H&J
http://www.thebipolarbum.com
All good pt. and like it. Not sure what the link is. In my eyes if it is to make money then what is said is in dishonest. Have no idea but agree with all you said. WN
I wish I made money from blogging. The link is there for any who are interested, those who aren’t needn’t click it ;)
Likewise, if me putting my link there is a sign of dishonesty, take everything I say with a pinch of salt.
H&J
First off, I appreciate that you are taking the time to address a lot of serious mental health issues. But this article is so full of judgment and anger that it almost seems unhelpful. What it does do is call out parents’ failings; what it doesn’t do is give them any tools to move forward into better ways to parent children with mental illness.
Parents in America are given a wide variety of basic child-rearing principles just through standard cultural knowledge: fire and car safety, stranger danger, put your baby on her back and not her stomach; generalized education info, generalized health info. But parents are given almost NO BASIC GUIDELINES about mental health for kids, except in the case of ADD/ADHD (and slightly more recently, autism spectrum disorders).
When your child has a mood disorder, it can honestly look kind of like persistent tantrums or immaturity. Even as a young child, my moods would “distract” extremely rapidly and severely. If my mother or father had been a psychiatrist, they might have recognized this as something to look into. As it was, my mother concluded that I was exaggerating my emotions and being dramatic. There was no feeling of “there’s nothing wrong with OUR child” or “Mental illness doesn’t exist.” They just didn’t KNOW. And it’s really sad to me that there was nothing out there to help them or teach them what to look for.
I’m absolutely sure that there really are parents who are acting selfishly and irrationally in the face of their child’s illness. But for those (hundreds of) parents who are just overwhelmed and confused and don’t know how to deal with mental illness, it would be helpful to put out encouraging advice on how to deal with a child’s mental illness, how to process what that means about their future life (and how to retrospectively understand what was probably a very rough childhood) without shaming them.
I, as a person who waiting until I was nearly 26 to seek and get help for what turns out to have been Type II Bipolar disorder, don’t want to be shamed about not taking better care of myself! I don’t want my parents to be shamed, either. I want us all to be able to move forward in understanding, hope, and learning.
This comment articulates the way I feel about this current post as well. I do understand that some parents are not active, and some parents ignore. But it is unfair and foolish to generalize all parents to this.
First and foremost, mental illness needs to be fought against together. As a team. This means the kid, the parents, the family, everyone and anyone in this child’s life. Pointing fingers and expressing anger towards one another will only deter the real issue at hand. We need to move forward.
I’m honestly so happy that you have this blog to express what you’re going through, to advise and spread awareness, but if you went through your battle of mental illness with your parents one way, please know this is not the case with all parents.
Being a parent is hard, and they are not problem solvers. As the comment above me expresses, parents can be confused or not aware of these illnesses. It’s not easy to understand what’s going on with your child. Most parents want what’s best for their child, and most try to give it to him/her. But we live in a world where the subject of mental illness is so hidden and almost taboo. We have to educate, not chastise.
My mother is the best advocate for my younger brother, who has bipolar disorder and has since he was born. Sometimes, it seems like she is the only one fighting for him. She’s been doing this for almost two decades now, with no complaint. And it’s only getting harder. People need to listen and understand that these illnesses are real. She is someone you’d be proud to know. She is a parent. There are many others like her. We need to help these parents find each other to join together and act on many of our society’s outrageous and shocking “dealings” with the mentally ill — Especially in children and teens.
So, when faced with the decisions to write about certain circumstances, use your story, yes, but use it in a way to promote a solution, not to create a bitter disposition. Bitterness will not help anything. Instead, let us learn from your story, from your experiences. Your passion is undeniable, but a little direction towards positivity will help open the doors for everyone to join us in this fight.
To fuliguline: Someone who does not agree with you doesn’t mean they are discouraging. If reality or facts you don’t agree with are not pleasant then so be it. That is what they are and false hopes and false cheer leading rarely help in the long run and very rarely to those who become informed and have some intelligence and ability to think. Including the children who all debate is to end when the first person claims it is all for the children.
Normally when there is a fight between parents or others fighting over something very important the first person I suspect of ill will is the one who says, everyone shut up “this is about what is best for the child’. This person then goes on to argue THEIR pt. of view as if THAT is what is without question is what is good for the child. This thin and empty thinking only works on those too afraid to stick to there opinions unless rationally proven wrong. Politicians and bullies pandering to the group consensus use this all the time. They always say (the politicians who wish debate to cease) “The opposition should stop partisan politics and worry about the American people, this of course means they are not being partisan and ARE working for the American people. The others are not. This is the same “support the troops bs”. The war has begun so this proves the killing is ok so let us continue to do it. Lame argument that deserves no weight.
Encouraging advice should be given when it is supported and not when it is done without evidence or facts in support. That just leads people down the wrong road. This is like the God fairytale. It doesn’t help anyone.
Shall the “education” you support include every ones opinions and versions of facts, or only your own? Sounds a bit like the “education” we should give people on marajuana etc. As well as teaching children to make the “right” decisions. Why let them decide when others have already decided what these fact and “right decisions” are and have also decided the punishment for those wrong opinions and decisions.
Sorry but I sense anger in you as well.
Just as an aside:
You said, “Normally when there is a fight between parents or others fighting over something very important the first person I suspect of ill will is the one who says, everyone shut up “this is about what is best for the child’. ”
Nice observation, but in fairness, this can *also* be an attempt to get warring egos to re-focus on what is the central issue. Typically true, I would suggest, when argument is between ex-partners over their child, when they find *proxy* issues to pick a fight and express their underlying conflict about something quite different. A problem when there is someone with BP in the house is that it *can sometimes* lead to division between the others in the household, to relationships breaking down, and that complicates things.
I would agree harry that the reminder can get parents to refocus but not sure many really want to to begin with. Know so many parents who play the custody game. Why not just share and tell the kids the other thinks as they do and you do as you do. All about control again and not letting others have their own ideas. Give kids ideas and let then decide. “Right” or “wrong”.
The proxy issues of course are as many as infinity. BP, alcohol, work, morality of parent, politics, etc., etc., etc., etc., etc. ……………………. The excuses with parents who know better then their partners when they break up is endless. All aspects of any ones personality of course have an impact. The level and it’s impact are up for debate as well as if they are positive or negative as a whole. The judges in these cases must either be brain dead or suffer from sever anxiety. WN
Agree 100% :)
Reading this brought me to tears.
I’ve struggled with depression and suicidal ideation ever since I was 14, I kept it in secret for years, and told my mom when I was 18. She told me that I didn’t have real problems and started telling me about hers, she insulted me and called me lazy.
I struggle with a lot of pain every day, and I feel like no one will ever try to help me, I’m scared that someday it’ll all be too much to bear, I’ll snap, and kill myself. I can’t stop crying, Natasha. No one has ever described it as well as you have, and reading you makes me feel like someone actually cares.
To: harryf200
You forgot about the response to me regarding saving the sorry asses of us with Bi-polar. Since you claim to be part of that group you too must be a sorry ass. Remember framing the argument usually means winning it Please admit you are a sorry ass. I’m not as I didn’t make that statement, but by your own definition you are.
I believe you attached a value judgement to the word selfishness yourself by the obvious implications you made.
The altruist argument and it’s implication are a bit too complex and difficult to discuss here as I’m sure you know and I’m not really interested in debating it with you as I don’t believe you are sincere about discussing it, I have other things to do and I believe it is best verbally debated due to it’s length and complexity. Unless writing a paper or something similar.
I believe you are a high level (I refuse to say the word) as It is so often abused and used a method to dismiss people.
Not to invoke grammar, punctuation and other rules as I am often guilty of the same, but as I have also been reminded by a friend recently and totally agree. Could you try to use paragraphs. Not an insult or anything, but it does make the argument easier to read and understand. I have a problem with run on sentences myself (though I think normally that is the result of trying to communicate a complex idea without interrupting it. Guess the paragraph deal is similar. Just a request, do as you wish.
I don’t believe friendships should be thrown away because someone is ill either mentally or physically (hope the day will come when we can just say ill as you know the brain is physical as any other organ is). Yes, it like all other relationships are conditional, but when someone I care about is unable to function to the same level as they previously have or of what I would like I don’t push them to. I expect the same in return. Bi-polar by definition admits that there is no steady state and when someone has it demands made upon them shouldn’t be anticipated to be linear. The same would be true of someone who had diabetes before it was treatable. I wouldn’t expect there blood sugar and energy levels to be constant throughout the day the same as a “normal” persons were.
I also believe that Bi-polar and other “MI’s” may have an evolutionary function. A person like me who can’t sleep at night normally but falls asleep shortly after the sun rises would most certainly benefit a group in “primitive” circumstances where predators were a risk (even in modern times it can maximize profits for a factory owner or other who wishes to keep his overhead down by keeping machinery and other costly overhead going 24/7). This may not benefit that individual, but the group as a whole could greatly benefit.
Part of the altruistic argument I stated earlier in response to your stand.
I believe I have made it quite clear that I and others who have Bi-polar and are suicidal are most likely just as concerned about the feeling of others as anyone else. If you have evidence to the contrary please give it to me i would be quite interested. I know of know studies one way or another. My opinions on this are purely anecdotal.
It’s not a suicide attempt if it’s not meant to kill oneself. I think that is quite obvious. A suicide attempt is a suicide attempt. Needing help and not getting it unless maiming oneself is something else. Sad to say people must damage themselves more then already hurting from the MI by hurting themselves more. Then the ambulance crew, nurses, doctors and so on treat them like shit. That make these poor selfish self centered sorry asses feel so much better by those “helping” them.
I had a complete stranger talk to me on the phone who I asked before saying anything to under no circumstances to call the police because part of my problem was abuse by them for political activity. In part for acting in behalf of the mentally ill. Mostly because of threats from police for making civil rights complaints against one of them for abuse. Other threatened me after that. A nowhere to go situation. The result was this person proceeded to call same police. The one who started the abuse was the first one to break down the door and eight of them proceeded to taser me. On the orders of another [all but one participated just like a Philip Zimbardo experiment (if not familiar You tube has some good videos of his experiments, quite interesting)] in my bed until running out of darts. Then started to manually shock me. Just lying in my bed minding my own business and harming no one. Police are the worst in abusing the MI. I think most REALLY enjoy it. The hospital staff duly going along with this blatant abuse of authority as is usually the case. Also no one to report obvious abuse of someone other then the abusers themselves. They of course didn’t even bother doing this. Not one to invoke the Nazi, Stalin etc. stuff. But this treatment will make anyone understand the Holocaust and how people with authority will (usually, not unusually) abuse authority when given it. The “help” of course is followed up by abuse in the hospital usually. Luckily not in this case with me. I happend to have been sent to a hospital where the Dr. was quite familiar with abuse by authority. That operator is a prime example of why to not trust people who think they can help people by a simple phone call and dismiss what people who are MI say. I was in her opinion I suppose an ignorant paranoid moron not worthy of respect or real consideration.
You seem to believe those who disagree with you are just arguing. Not having an argument as in a pt. of view. That seems to be a problem of yours and not mine. I will not agree with you just to make you feel better. I will agree if I actually do and not otherwise. I also will not fall for that lame attempt of yours to dismiss my opinions. And, I most certainly won’t let you decide what my motivations are for debating someone. I personally don’t think you have much validity at all in you views, but that’s your business. I’ll give you your opinions as I believe in unlimited free speech, but I will also physically defend myself against actions taken against me. Either at the time it occurs, if it logical and I can adequately calculate the odds at the time or I will come back at a latter date to see it isn’t repeated again against me or others who are abused, locked up, shot up with drugs against our wills, strapped down for attempting to defend themselves or otherwise just for defending our rights. That to me isn’t up for debate. It is violence against me and that is not tolerable to me in any way and there are no statute of limitation on it. Just as I must pay for my crimes against others. They must pay for there crimes against me.
I’m an argumentative miserable sod. I really was think the same of you as well as thinking your quite irrational, illogical and not all that bright. One thing I’m very sure of is that you like to control others and are very quick with the personal insults when your opinion is proven to be inconsistent. Especially when it is made by someone MI who you can’t accept to have a mind that may be sharper then your own. Sorry, but your the one who started with insults. It wasn’t me. Remember I’m the “Sorry ass”. Not you of course. You have already proven you are a bit on the slow side by not knowing how to kill yourself successfully, not me. As well, you care so much about others you were going to join the military to do a little killing of the innocent on your way to your own demise.
I am sorry about your mother dying as my father died recently. That in no way negates any of my opinions in anyway, nor does it again give you or anyone the right to do any of the things they have done to me or let them off the hook. Or to do it again.
Interesting. I was thinking virtually the same as you in your last sentence but for different reasons. If you has something new to say please feel free to respond. If not please don’t. You like me seem to be one who wants to have the last word in. Actually I’m not really like that anymore, but I must admit I have been in the past.
Have fun and learn how to mind your own life and let others live theirs. WN
First, I apologise for saying anything that you felt insulted you. What was said was meant playfully but that is no excuse,. It would be nice if you will do me the same courtesy.
Second, I also apologise that my writing style has been diffcult for you to read. I do better when I am well, but I do much worse when I am very unwell. However, I rather like the John Clare (English poet) approach to English grammar … I am quite subversive!
Third, yes – I am a sorry ass! At least all those who have told me to ‘pull yourself together’ thought so! (I used the term previously as reference to how others often see us, not how I see people with BP, but I can empathise enough to understand why they may see us in that negative light.) However, I prefer the term ‘Bipolar Survivor’. I see *you* most certainly are that, and from what you say, you’ve had a great deal thrown at you, esp’ by those with authority. (I have heard similar before, from others with MI, but, while I have had a few ‘run-ins’ they were nothing to do with MI nor anything as physically abusive; they were, however, as a result of activism,but not related to MI.) I entirely agree, the person you spoke to on the phone was wrong to break your confidence. I can understand why they did it (they thought they were helping) but look at the result … you no longer feel able to confide in anyone over the telephone. But I think their heart was in the right place even if they were wrong – they cared enough to try to help and would not have been able to predict the end result would be very unhelpful to you.
Fourth, I apologise if it seems I am dismissive of your opinions. Your views are as valid as mine in a matter where there is no absolute truth. We argue – no, we *debate* – over the merits or demerits of our own personal values, and that is all they are. That is not to say, your values are not as worth as much as mine – they clearly are worth more to you! It is to say, my values are not as worth as much to you as your own, and vice versa. The purpose of the debate is, I hope, to better understand each others point of view and in doing this we state why the others view would not be acceptable to them. That said, what I do criticise (not in you) is unkindness.
It is kindness, or a lack of it, that bothers me. If someone chooses to end their life in a way that will hurt others but they cannot avoid causing them the hurt, what they do may be selfish in the strict sense but it would not be unkind. If they choose to take their own life in a way that will hurt others when they could avoid hurting them, that would be selfish AND unkind. I criticise unkindness. I regard kindness as being a superior to unkindness.
No, I do not attach a negative judgement to selfishness, but to the decision process behind it. It’s difficult to frame this explanation, but I shall try to explain by way of an example. Two men on a desert island and they are starving. A food parcel is parachuted in to them. There is enough food for both of them, but one of them behaves selfishly by eating ALL the food so the other man starves. That’s bad selfishness. Same scenario, food is parachuted in, but there is only enough food to keep one man alive – if they share it, both will die. One behaves selfishly and takes all the food, and he lives, while the other starves. That’s selfishness, but one could not say what he did was wrong; he was forced to choose to live or die, and for one to live, the other had to die.
I am, by the way, very famiiar with the Stanford Prison Experiment. You will know Philip Zimbardo was called as a defensive witness at the Abu Ghraib trial, but I noted his evidence did not convince the Court. (It did me.)
While I agree friendships should not be thrown away lightly, it is sometimes necessary to do things that will damage, or even destroy them. And yes, it is sometimes necessary to throw them away. If you frequently keep the company of someone who is always depressed, always low and in a negative state of mind, they will eventually wear you down, even if you start out as strong and mentally healthy. Clearly, those who are already prone to MI are more at risk of being dragged down, and it is sometimes necessary to keep a distance from them for the sake of one’s own sanity. Similarly, sometimes well-meaning good friends don’t understand MI, esp. not BP, and will thrust inappropriate, unwelcome advise with such a passion that it hurts; their love becomes toxic, and we have to push them away for our own well-being. The same people will often expect us to join all their social activities and do not understand why we decline – you’ve met them: “Come on! Join the party – it will make you feel better!” Oh, no it won’t, but they don’t understand why not. So, they interpret our unwillingness as us not caring about them; and so we inadvertently push them away. You must have experienced this. The path of people with BP is littered in their wake by spoiled and ruined personal and business relationships, and friendships.
By the way, the issue of my desire for military service, this was to have joined in a war (the liberation of the Falklands following invasion by Argentine forces), one that I felt at the time was just, and to go in the navy on a ship. As a crew member in that war, there would have been very little chance of me killing anyone but every chance of being killed. That was the odd rationale behind my poor thinking at the time. It is the same as some men in the army who put themselves in harm’s way before they would shoot an enemy – they want to die in combat.
Your idea about BP having an evolutionary function is interesting. I’ll give it some thought. It is certainly more appealing tha the theory presented to me by a religious person who thought I had been ‘blessed’ (blessed?!) with BP so that I could help others with BP! So, according to her odd logic, I get BP to help someone with BP, so they can help someone with BP, so they can also help someone with BP until ‘BP infinity’. (In that case, someone should point out to God, if there is one, it would be a whole lot simpler if he didn’t give anyone BP in the first place ….)
My mother had mental illness and chose to not be treated for she did not believe she was mentally ill. I’ve suffered with mental illness of one sort or another (cause G knows, there is no science to diagnoses and I’ve had many different ones, as I’ve traversed this universe of MH care for nearly 40 years) since I was wee little.
I have a child, a daughter. She began to have depression, insomnia, mood swings and issues with school work & grades for some years.,
That noted: home life was horribly unstable and insecure due to father’s abuse & neglect towards she & I, literal loss (due to death) of 2 extremely important and close people to her in rather short time, a young cousin battling brain cancer and I and my husband eventually divorcing… all within those EXACT same years.
So, we have the normal teenage hormones – the normal teenage mood swings AND external trigger mechanisms hitting her – causing high anxiety and depression.
So, she did not ask me for help… I saw to it that she see a therapist and a psychiatrist when this period of time started. She was placed on an anti-depressant which has marked improvement in her anxiety levels, thus decreasing much of the depressive levels. She is still, to this day, seeing a therapist.
Not all parents are ignorant, intolerant, unbelieving and refusing to seek help for their kids when they see them drowning due to normal biological issues – and external triggers screwing those biological issues.
I’ve also gotten to know many of her friends, and she has a very large circle of friends… many of them have been in MH care for several years now… and there are a few who are simply not wanting to talk to their parents about their struggles with school, growing up, bullying (being), measuring up against others, etc..
Sometimes… the parent doesn’t see or hear because the child is not communicating. One boy, in particular, refused to speak with his Dad about things going on in his life and I prodded him continually for over 2 years.. to talk to his parents and especially his Dad. He then tried to kill himself, one weekend, and when I spoke with his Dad later about it… his Dad said that he wanted his son to talk to him but when he asked – his son wouldn’t speak… he finally (the son) got to where he started talking.
By the way I no longer see the comment that was the target of my terribly profane and offensive language. So perhaps it is gone now, and no longer bugs the poo out of me.
What was the comment Christina? Did I miss it? I don’t think I saw a profane (not that i think there is such a thing) comment by you nor the comment you were targeting? What were they or are you alluding to something else? WN
Just someone with a bunch of links to something of theirs. A book or something of that nature. It wasn’t a big deal; just a pet peeve of mine. There is a lot of great (and difficult) discussion here and I find it rude when someone jumps in with a pitch, then exits. Terrible use of social media, in my opinion.
Hey your sarcasm is almost endearing – I often employ the same brand of wit myself.
I just think there is a time and place for swearing – a film like Back to the Future has mild profanities without any vitriol attached. Context and purpose were behind my beef here.
If you think I’m part of the ‘difficult discussion’ then I’ll be game to stick to my convictions in future discussion. Only fair really.
“Difficult” is not meant as a negative. Difficult as in this topic is difficult for us to discuss…painful and somewhat controversial. I am sorry I offended you with my profanity. I am not being sarcastic in the slightest. Understand that what is appropriate for you isn’t the same for everyone. I think you are mishearing the tone which happens all the time online.
Yeah I thought I might have made the wrong assumption some hours after I posted. I definitely got a lot more insight into Natasha’s excellent manner of being articulate and emotionally open when she did a live podcast earlier on this year.
I wouldn’t say I myself was grievously offended just maybe some other people might have been. Anyway hope your Easter has gone well or better than expected. I’ve just had a day to forget, but then 365/365 is an impossible benchmark to set!
Christina, how about doing me a favor and letting me in on the private conversation. If for no other reason then curiosity. Does this have to do with Mark showing up on this blog always accompanied by a sidekick with similar or complimentary opinions (like Martin in this case), or am I totally off. Just curious as I’ve said. It just seems Mark shows up just in the nick of time. WN
Will, nothing was private – I think what you are referring to is my comment about a comment being taken down. It was a woman who had posted a bunch of links to a parenting book or blog. I honestly can’t remember the details. It was an off-the-cuff response to it as I find it “rude” when people are having a conversation about a topic such as this to make a marketing pitch.
As for anything else, I’m not sure what you’re asking. I’m not part of the regulars here who comment, though i do read faithfully.
I have nothing to do with Mark, and don’t particularly appreciate the ‘sidekick’ remark – I am sure I don’t agree with anyone 100% of the time.
I didn’t even see the parenting blog links, so in the confusion thought you took exception to Robin’s link.
My mental illnesses started during my pre-teen years, but I did not allow myself to recognize them. My adopted mother was suffering so badly from her own depression, and I knew she couldn’t handle my problems also, so I simply kept quiet and internalized everything. There were a few times when I said “depression is for losers”, because a) I heard it at home, and b) I didn’t want to admit I might be in that category. Of course I just wanted to be “normal”, and I was deathly afraid of something being wrong in my mind. Had it not been for a loving friend, I may have gone down that path of suicide.
Sometimes a parent is simply not capable of understanding or accepting the possibility their child may have a mental illness. Sometimes the parent makes the problem worse through abuse and neglect. Sometimes the parent cannot deal with the child’s illness because they have their own illness to deal with. Sometimes the child themselves is resistant to acknowledge the pain and suffering that hides behind the mask they have to wear every day.
When my own daughter’s bipolar symptoms started to show around age 11, I am so glad that I had experience with the disease and recognized the signs in her behavior. With her cooperation, we got her the treatment she needed, despite having to fight through several stubborn physicians. I hope that other kids might have parents who are able and willing to take action.
Oh my goodness, having read all of these comments, I can honestly say that I can see a little of me in all of them. I am a parent who lost a son to suicide. I understand what Natasha is saying, I could be classed as a parent who wasn’t listening, who didn’t care BUT I was not, I just did not have enough knowledge to differentiate between teenage behaviour/ups and downs and the early signs of mental illness. My son was 14 when he first began to show signs of something being wrong. He died when he was 29. After he died, I wrote an article for our local paper, warning parents not to be hoodwinked into thinking their child was misbehaving or simply displaying signs of adolescent behaviour. I realised too late, that he had been struggling in his early teens, with something far more serious. The problem for me, was, I had no experience of mental illness, no knowledge, no clues to point me in the right direction. He and I went to the doctors and were told he had a melancholic nature. I was most likely seen as a worrying mother! My mother’s heart told me something wasn’t right but I did not ever think of mental illness because i didn’t know the signs. I knew the signs of the physical illnesses of childhood because they were well documented. Just last week, some professional wrote that children should have mental health checks as they have physical health checks. I totally agree and that was my cry 10 years ago. I write this in memory of my son John, who died 11 years ago on Easter Monday, hoping that it will encourage other parents, who find themselves in the same situation to REACH OUT to those who have the knowledge and keep asking questions on your child’s behalf. I live in the UK.
I was a mentor for a little girl for 5 years. She shared with me information that deeply comcerned me, so I tried talking to her mother over and over again, explaining my concerns. (I’m a retired mental health counselor, which her mother knew.) Mother refused to get the child any help, though she made ‘promises’ to follow through.
The now young teen was cutting herself, not eating and displaying extreme mood swiings. It finally came to a head when the girl carved words into her wrist and told me she had a suicide plan. I gave the mother no option, so the child spent 4 days on a psychiatric ward and was dischared with a diagnosis of Mood Disorder and given a month’s supply of Lamictal and an appointemnt time for the following month.
Mother did not keep the child’s psychiatrist appointment, and the girl ran out of meds. I offered to take her there and pick her up since mother was ‘too busy’, but mother wouldn’t agree. I suggested that her grandmother could take her and found out that mother still had’nt told grandmother or ex husband (the girl’s father) about the hospitalization because she was afraid of what they would think! Mother said she had talked to her daughter and that the girl had promised she wouldn’t act that way again. Nothing I said made a difference.
I finally had to call Child Protective Services. (I heard that the entire family was sent to counseling). After that her mother cut off contact between me and the child.
Folks, please, if you know that a child is struggling with a mental illness GET HELP! If the parents won’t listen then go over their head. Better a pissed off adult than a dead child.
Did that one sweeping all encompassing anonymous phone call with nothing of yours at stake make you feel better. It usually does for people. Could have just as easily ruined a family but those call always make people feel better. REAL help is so much harder. You may change your mind if someone makes one of those calls on you. Well you have done your christian duty and all is well. Isn’t modern society great. One phone call and all is fixed. Forget the due process etc. of the “abusive parent”. At least you feel good. WN
First: the call was not anonymous; I told the mother what I was going to do if she didn’t get the child back on her medication and into therapy. The mother flat out refused to get the child help because she was worried about what her family would think of her. And this was after the child had a 4 day stay in a psych hospital.
Second: Did you miss the part where this child admitted to having a concrete suicide plan? Where she was cutting herself and displaying an eating disorder? And was given a diagnosis, medication and an appointment?
Third: It did not make me feel better, just the opposite. I agonized over the decision, and ran it past 3 other professionals (no names used) who agreed with me that I was out of options and needed to follow through.
I lost the chance to contine to mentor a wonderful young lady who just happened to have a mental illness. I think of her often.
Exactly what kind of REAL help are you talking about? I spent time with that child every week for 5 years. I was the one she confided in about her depression and her not eating. I shared this with the mother over and over again for years with no response. I was the one person she trusted enought to admit to her suicide plan.
I hope your sweeping, all encompassing tirade over my decisions made you feel good and that all is well.
I guess I must take your statement that the call was not anonymous on it’s face. In these matters of course. Even if the call isn’t made as such, your call will be treated as anonymous unless it goes all the way to a court and even then your identity will normally be protected. For the most part the results are the same. You aren’t put on the spot and that makes things infinitely easier on you and harder for the mother.
Second: Your threats to the mother in regard to weather or not HER daughter should be on medication and/or in therapy are just that, and they are nothing more then your opinion. Obviously not those of the mother. The threat and the following call made after an agreement based on trust has been broken. Once that is broken it is gone.
Totally agree that what the mother’s family thought of her should have no bearing on what the mother does. That is not a legitimate excuse.
Just because the child spent four days in the hospital doesn’t mean she should have been there. I was put in the hospital a couple of times for no good reason other then a vindictive and greedy brother. That does nothing to justify the hospitalisation itself. Zero to do with it in fact. Because something happens does not mean there was a justifiable reason to cause it to begin with.
Again in the same vein being given medication doesn’t justify the giving of it. It just means she was given it. It doesn’t say anything on why she was given it. As the concrete plan to commit suicide and the cutting and the eating disorder. First: these are all different things and are quite common in most humans depending on how they are magnified or not.
Most human beings have thought about suicide as you must know. If you won’t admit this you are being delusional. Most who have thought of suicide have also though of how to do it (more so with those with better imaginations, which children and others shouldn’t be punished for) if you think of things you normally imagine the act and the circumstances. You say she is bright. This would be a manifestation of it. Isn’t it her body? She can’t eat as she likes? The eating disorder thing seems to be popular anyway these days. Is it not her body to cut as she likes. Do you own it?
Will you be there when she applies to medical school and is declined on the sly and without reason because of a private file. I’m wondering about that in regard to my gifted 16 year old niece right now. She already has the disadvantage of being poor and with no connections. I’m guessing the results of your call will be history to you. These thinks that involve gov. have lifelong consequences. I hope you follow it to see that call didn’t ruin her chances!
I think we both we know the responses of “pros”. They have nothing to lose for being “safe”, but if someone commits suicide they are put on the spot. If this didn’t ruin lives and trust them in may be OK, but that isn’t how it is today. These calls as I’ve said and you know have grave consequences for these children. These “pros” have almost nothing to loose as as you’ve said, “no names”. That sums it up doesn’t it. No names except the accused mentally ill. There is a record of them not the anonymous people you contacted.
Call it a tirade if you want. I say the same about you. Real help means you follow this girl the rest of her life in regard to your actions on her when those records follow her. Are you staying active with this girl after this phone call, or like almost all are you just hoping others take care of it.
Like all the devils are in the details and you are there and not me so I hope you do what is right. Never forget the stigma and that these files are kept on people and they can and will ruin lives. Most of it as I’ve said is done privately and no one says anything. WN
Genuine question, Will – no sarcasm intended – what would you suggest people do when you see a child in a dire situation?
I’ve suffered from an eating disorder most of my life – yes, it’s my body to do with as I’d like – but as far as I know, the US does not allow for assisted suicide, and standing idly by while someone kills themselves through not eating, suicide threats, or the like seems exactly like assisted suicide.
I think there is also a very big difference than thinking about suicide and actually trying to do it, planning it, implementing those plans. How do you differentiate between “normal” suicidal thoughts and someone who is going to do it? Do you wait until it’s been attempted before taking it seriously?
Many people DID intervene on my behalf when I was too sick to make good decisions. Not every helpful attempt was appreciated or the best, but all those people cared and were trying to do the best they could for me. In some cases, they saved my life. I do not resent them for their attempts.
I understand getting the label early in life can haunt one for the rest of their time (I have experienced this myself, though my label was not given early, and oddly I have the opposite reaction of yours – I am angry I was misdiagnosed for so long). But I’m asking you, what would you have done? If this child HAD killed herself while someone who obviously cared about her stood idly by, would that have been okay?
Thank you for the honest question Christine. I mean that. I believe it is an honest question and meant as such. Also, I would like to apologize to Arlene if I came off as an idiot. I didn’t mean it in the way I think it may have sounded. I know the difficult situation she was in if indeed that was the real situation she was in. I didn’t hear the other side so of course I don’t know.
First, and above all I think we should stop the widespread recording and retention of medical records of all kinds and on all people. Adults or children. I know this retention is being championed and even supported at least in the US by federal and local government. Widespread retention of individual records of any kind I believe has been proven to be for the most part a very bad thing. I wont say when and where these records have been abused in the past, but I’m sure you know what i mean.
As to if something is legal or not. That is irrelevant to me, other then the fear of retaliation for my behavior. I base my morality and my actions on what I believe to be right and wrong. Not by laws made by others based on politics, religion, force, tradition etc. I do understand the situation of those who are put on the spot. As In it being there profession etc. to follow the “rules” regarding these things and the threats to their income, lives, family, etc. I suppose this is why I could never be involved in this field as well as others. i turned down a very good job making 155mm artillery shell for similar reasons. I have never been able to do things I wouldn’t do on my own but excuse myself from doing so when being paid for them. Why I am poor and powerless I suppose.
I think we all have a right to commit suicide, to cut ourselves and to stare ourselves. That is our right and no one others. Even though it is not often the case, these customs, laws etc. have forever been used as pretexts to control others. I would hope that we can decide these things ourselves and get help when WE ask for them and not when others decide we need them.
I guess your experience with those using their power has been much different then mine. I was due to my recent ant-war activity abused by a psychiatrist in Philadelphia who had just left the United States Military Academy. Also a prosecutor who just left the USAF ( a lieutenant colonel) acting as a defense attorney. Both not revealed beforehand and revealed after the fact. Some have helped me but mainly just a roll of the dice. The power is too great and should be removed. Only people who have committed a crime against others should be locked up. The hospitals I’ve been locked up in were no better then prisons by my experience for the most part. Dehumanized, no help for the most part. Just a place to put people and do nothing. It doesn’t help people. It just hurts people.
I’ve never hurt another in my life. I have been hurt by the people claiming to help others. Again, this power should be taken away.
What someone may do is no justification for actually doing something to someone. WN
I take a slightly different view. In principle, I agree that we should be able to do what we want with our bodies *provided* a) what we would do would in decided when we are fully compus mentis an b) that it should not hurt others.
With regard to the first: IF one is not compus mentis then I think there is a moral obligation, at least on society, to prevent the person who is lacking sanity from doing anything they might not have chosen were they fully sane. E.g. My view, anyone who self-harms is probably suffering from a mental illness and would not choose to hurt themselves if they were not unwell.
In respect of the other, the most extreme self harm is, of course, suicide. The decision to do this may actually be taken when one is compus mentis, save for assisted suicides with a clinic that offers the service, generally the process of a suicide may cause harm to others. For example, when people kill themselves by standing, or l;ayind down, in fron of a train, there will be at least two sets of victims other than the deceased. The first of these is the traindriver who may be traumatised by the event. As an example, one driver of a Lpndon Underground train was so badly effected psychologically, he was never able to work again – thus not only was he affected but so too were his family because his income was lost. The second set of victims are those who have to clear up the mess of what was a human body but is, after being hit and run over by the train, a butchers mess of body parts. Of course, there are other victims, too – friends and family, some of whom will be not just distressed by their loss but by guilt and anger, guilt because they may feel they should have known that the deceased felt suididal and because the may feel there was something more they should have done that woul have saved the deceased And then, not only will some feel angry with themselves for how they think they failed to help the deceased, they often blame each other for not having made more of an effort. I know of friendhips and families irreconcilably divided by the suicide of a man. So, anyone contemplating suicide should, *if* they can, consider the damage they may do to others. Suicide is essentially a selfish act; however, having been on the edge of it myself several times in the past, I understand the mental pain and anguish it causes can be intolerable – as Tracey has said and I agree, people who want to kill themselves don’t really want to die – they just want the pain to go away. And sometimes we may have to put ourselves first, before the interests of others! However, no one who has been close to it should be in any doubt that the will leave a trail of psychologically damaged people behind them, and people who now will be more at risk of suicide thmselves than they were before their friend, partner or relative took their own life. In my own case, having young dependent children has kept me long enough from oblivion to no longer want to take my life. But if I become significantly unwell in the future at a time when my children are independent, the option might well come back on the table.
To Harryyf200 (can’t respond directly, really wish Natasha could fix this), I had read your mail just before going to sleep last night and was tired and a bit perplexed on how to respond.
This is why I have decided not to. You said you have been suicidal and also say ” it is essentially selfish”. This just makes you an “word Natasha won’t let me say, but I am sure she wouldn’t mind it in this situation”. I don’t believe you have been suicidal, nor do I believe you are being sincere in the least. I think you are what I would like to say but refuse to use the word. I think you are baiting me.
I also think you believe those who are depressed and or bipolar deserve what they get and why they are what they are. Also don’t think you have a clue what we (those who really are BP go through) by even saying such a thing.
The rest of your mail is not worth responding to as it is an amateurish attempt at reason. The use of Latin or French will usually tip one of to those attempts. It doesn’t make you look like an intellectual. It just makes you look like a fool, especially when used in the way you have.
Keep trying though. If you try just a little harder you may make actually degrade and dehumanize someone here enough to convince themselves they are selfish and inhuman by being suicidal. You may even succeed enough to cause a suicide. I think this would reinforce your belief and make you feel good about the depressed being responsible for their illness. WN
You are so wrong about too much. I AM Bipoiar, a ‘bipolar survivor’. I have endured Ultradian BP, with mood swings sometimes moving from one end of the scale in MATTER OF DAYS, and generally with a mixed episode (dysphoric mania) in the middle. I have stood on the tracks look down at an on coming train at about 37 years of age, tried to join a war when I was around 27 so I could die with a feeling that my worthless life \9as it felt at the time) would have had some purpose and, when I was 17, I was stood in a school’s toilets trying and failing to disembowel myself with an antler handle knife. I have wanted to die to be rid of the pain. I have experienced too many dysphoric manias in 50 years and feel certain I won’t be able to stand another of the severity of those that have happened before. I have a catalogue of poetry and an autobiographical short story about suicide. Would you like me to post one? I have been through those delusions of thinking I was God’s chosen one, or destined to be the father of the new Messiah, and I once stalked the streets one day in a blinding dysphoric rage intent on finding someone “bad”, who I would have dispatched for the benefit of human kind. I’ve not worked because of this ##### illness for nigh on 10 years and only now am I reasonably stable, thanks to Lamotrigine, but I still have a level of depression enough to slow me down and leave me still unable to find full pleasure in Life or motivate me to live it.
So, you don’t think I am bipolar? Please tell that to my psychiatrist and teach her the error of her ways – I am sure she would appreciate it.
For all this, I am still of the view that suicide is a selfish act, and one day I may become selfish again, but at least I shall know what it is that I will be doing and how I may be damaging others in doing it. I may then be past caring, in too much pain to even think about that, but just because I may not see a red door as I travel past it at 200mph it doesn’t mean the red door isn’t there. Savvy
To: Harryf200. I think you have proven my pt. If not that you are not bi-polar. Which I still don’t believe you are. It doesn’t matter though whether you are or aren’t. I can’t prove you aren’t it and you can’t prove to me you are.
What I can say is if you think suicide is selfish. You have never been suicidal or you were too ill in one way or another at the time to think rationally. Suicidal thinking by itself is not irrational in the least. Either when contemplating it due to any disease. “Mental(brain)” or not.
I suppose anything can be considered selfish in a larger sense. Like not buying ones daughter their third slice of pizza and buying instead some cough medicine when you have the flu. I’m guessing you are so utterly concerned about the welfare of others you live a life of absolute poverty and with a donated hair shirt to increase the suffering, as you seem to believe a person going through even the worse suffering is being selfish by trying to stop it? I wish I could be that great and that caring. Unfortunately, I’m not and I suspect you aren’t either. WN
I agree, suicide can be a very rational decision – e.g. for someone with a terminal illness that would otherwise not permit the to die with the dignity they desire. But it is rarely a rational decision for someone who has a mental illness because it is a symptom of mental illness that it deprives us of some rationality while we are under its influence. We do not grasp that, however bad we may feel, it will pass. Of course with BP, if the treatment isn’t going well, it will likely come back again later! That’s how it was for me and may be again later – I see my current state as being because of or in spite of the medication…
But my point is that, however rational or not is a decision to take one’s own life, it *is* a selfish act *if* by doing it we damage other people. Do you agree?
BTW, I suspect that you (too) have been in the suicide spot, but have you ever been in the place of someone who has been left behind after someone close to you has taken their own life? I have and was tortured by the feeling I should and could have done more to help her, that I might have shown her a reason to stay alive. But whatever I felt, it would have been nothing compared with her closest friends and her parents, not that of her teacher who many blamed for her sense of despair, and nothing like the emotions the Police officers would have felt when they had to pick up the grizzly remains of a pretty 17 year old girl who had been chewed up on a rail track by a train. Of course, one may be too irrational to think of these things when one takes that ultimate act, or else it might stop us.. However, if we think about such things while we are in a rational state of mind, while we are not as ill as we can be, then if (or when) that bad time comes again, there is a chance that a glimmer of remembrance may hold us back long enough to get through the lowest of times. I think the ‘trick’ in surviving depressions is not the knowledge that they will pass, as they always do eventually, but in finding thoughts and things that will distract us long enough for the worst to pass. Knowing this, I have successfully ‘talked out’ three people from suicide (one of them twice) – they were at the lowest ebb in the night and I kept them talking all through the night up until dawn by which time they either felt a little better (at least, not so bad they wanted to kill themselves immediately) or because they felt too damned tired to do anything about it and went off to have a sleep, and when they woke, they didn’t feel quite so desperate as they had a few hours before. (One of them had tried hard to die many times – 8 serious attempts in 12 months! – and I talked her out twice. I was finally found she had been misdiagnosed and, therefore, been given inappropriate medication that made her feel … well, suicidal! With the correct treatment, she is now very much alive and living fairly contentedly abroad with her husband and daughter.)
t
To Harryf200, can’t respond to well right now. I’m selfishly trying to keep the you know what at bay as well as the vermin from my appart. Took me 2 hours to clean the littler box. Your solution of course is a quick call to police and make me homeless. Wouldn’t even be surprised if was your pt. to begin with. I due to those like you can’t feel what I say as you will decide what is good and bad. You will beat down the weak when they can’t fight back. Maybe someday I’ll be able to and those who would make things worse for those like me will be first on the list.
Doe’s the power feel good to you? WN
I don’t know why you think I would call the Police on you. If you told me you felt suicidal all I would do is recommend you see a doctor and ask for help. If you told me you were about to kill yourself, I might call the Police or I might not – it would depend on the circumstances, That is to say, I would follow The Samaritans protocol – if you told me IN CONFIDENCE that you were going to do it, I would NOT call the Police. If you did NOT
No. I try to treat people as I would wish to be treated myself. If they are weak, I try to give them strength.
Would I call the Police? Do you mean would I call them if you said you were suicidal? No. People often *say* they *want* to die – if anyone with BP said they had never felt that way, I would not believe them. I have, and did feel that was just a few days ago. *Feeling* that way does not mean we are about to do it. However, if you told me you were just about to do it, or said you were in the process of doing it, I *might* call them, or I might not – it depends. If I wanted to help you in the future in the event of the attempt failing, I would NOT
There is something wrong with the system as it keeps posting my comments before I have finished writing them. I’ll try again, but get to the point quicker.If you said you were suicidal, I would NOT call the Police, because everyone with BP feels that way sometime, but at least half of us never follow through with an attempt to do it, and those who do are not usually successful. So, assuming you did not follow through, or lived if you did, you might then feel *safe* speaking to me again at a later date if you needed to do so. If you told me you were about to kill yourself, or was in the process of doing it, I *might* call the Police, or I might not; if you told me that in confidence, I would not call them, but if you didn’t tell me in confidence, I would – i.e. I would follow The Samaritans protocol. I would not break the confidence. That’s important. Why? For two reasons: Once you break a confidence, it means you cannot be trusted by the person who shared their secret with you, and they will likely never speak about their problem with you again. That could be tragic *if* they failed in the attempt and felt you had been the *only* person they could talk with. Without someone to talk to, it becomes more likely they will try again and maybe succeed. Also, if *anyone else* found you had broken a confidence with someone else, the same issue arises – they won’t trust you enough to share their thoughts of despair with you either, and so you are not in a position to help them, either. The point here is that most suicide attempts fail, and the person who tried, they will probably need someone to talk to later when they again feel desperate, but they won’t feel able to do that with someone who has betrayed their trust. If what was said was NOT in confidence, it would not then be a betrayal of trust to repeat it, perhaps then to call in the Police if that would save a life. My friend tried, seriously tried, many times before she got the right treatment; once she was treated correctly, she did recover and she is now enjoys living well. If she had died, she would not be enjoying life, her husband would have lost his wife and their daughter, a mother. But she got through wanting and trying hard to die long enough to be re-diagnosed and finally get the right treatment. I am pleased I played a part in keeping her alive, as is she and her family.
To: Harryf200. Both comments unclear and in unnecessarily legalistic terms under the circumstances. Especially to those in distress who are suicidal and wish to speak to someone for help not to control their destiny. Not that they can’t think clearly ( actually they can’t, just like when I’m in severe back pain which I usually am I can’t do new problems in tensor calculus, not that I’ve tried recently). Bi-polar can be a terminal illness or say chronic and lifelong, with pain just as severe if maybe different then these others.
The point again that must be repeated over and over again is. IF YOU WISH TO HELP SOMEONE DO IT. WE ALL NEED IT. DO NOT TWIST THAT INTO PATERNALISTIC CONTROL OVER OTHERS. ALL PEOPLE HAVE THE RIGHT TO LIVE OR DIE AS THEY PLEASE. IT IS NOT YOUR RESPONSIBILITY NOR IS IT YOUR RIGHT TO PUNISH, INCARCERATE OR FORCE DRUGS ON PEOPLE WHO HAVE DONE NOTHING TO ANYONE. TO DO SO TO ME I CONSIDER AN ACT OF VIOLENCE AGAINST ME. MORALLY I HAVE EVERY RIGHT TO DEFEND MYSELF AGAINST SUCH ACTIONS. I’ve never ever used the capitalize everything deal with anyone, but I want it to be very clear to you and everyone else that I greatly appreciate any help anyone can give me as I always try to help others in pain or distress, but you don’t have a right to control me or others with MI. As I’ve said before many times. The white mans burden was always wrong and still is. WN
Forgive me if I misunderstand but you seem to be saying no one else has a right to say how you live or die even if how you live and die is damaging to them. I see it this way: If you want to die, go ahead, BUT you have no right to expect others to clear up your mess after you’re gone.
So, don’t shoot out your brains or jump in front of a train because some poor guy will have to pick up your brains off the wall or rail tracks – you have no right to force that on people, to traumatise people that way. You have no right to make it so someone has to cut you down from a tree you hung yourself from. You have no right to die quietly in an apartment where no one knows you’re there until your liquifying corpse starts to drip through the ceiling of the apartment below. You have no right to do in such a way that you traumatise he train driver, the bus driver or car driver that you used, *without their permission*, to end your life. You have no right to make people have to move your body out of a bath tub turned red with your blood, no right to make paramedics risk their lives driving fast in trying to get your dying body to a hospital, nor any right dragging doctors and nurses away from patients who who need treating and want to live, as they try to save your sorry ass.
Yes, you have a right to live or die, but not if you cause harm to others in the way you live or the way you die. Other people have the right not to be harmed by you.
So, if you’ve got to do it, do it in a way that nobody has to see or have to find your carcass later. Because you don’t have a right to make others see you die, nor see you dead, nor scoop you up after you’re gone. Fair enough?
To: harryf200
Guess you figured out the posting method here and other things better then me. Good work.
First, you are right. No one has a right to decide whether or not I live or die or when, where or why. This is the biggest choice anyone makes and it is up to no one other then the one who owns that life. I give others the same choice as I try to be consistent. I of course always think of how my action affects those who are in my life as well as others who may be impacted (please take into account due to there illness MI individuals normally have far fewer people (if any) who really care if they exist or not. Love is conditional, if you don’t believe that you are delusional.
In response to your persistent questions about those who I do not know who do not care if I live or die other them me being a human being as they are this is my reply. If I attempt suicide I do not expect a Dr. to attempt to save my life. I think we both know how attempted suicides are treated in the ER. The Dr’s., nurses and other staff in the ER are as a general rule quite dismissive of those who attempt this action. They are in short treated like shit (you seem to think this is OK and I believe this makes you a poser in your claim you care about the MI . As in you don’t really believe MI is real and/or is the fault of the one who is sick). Most ER staff either care for the patient only because they will loose there license or due to peer pressure to dehumanize them (both really selfish reasons for doing something you claim to be an action by an individual who is unworthy of treatment. Same is true of the police, fireman, paramedics etc. For those who truly care it is different which is why I agree with you that people who haven’t left money and/or means for the clean up (if they have them) should make every effort to reduce the impact on others in those position. Such as, going into the woods, etc. (depending upon where you live) shooting yourself, hanging, chemicals, etc. (Natasha doesn’t allow details, and may be your goal?) to commit the evil deed.
By the way. If you smoke, drink, don’t exercise, don’t keep a log of you health, attend CPR classes, fly a helicopter or single engine vintage plane, ski, snowboard and on and on. You must follow the same pre-action rules as those who attempt suicide (based upon calculated fatality and injury rates of course). Or more so in you thinking as the MI are far less rational and irresponsible to make such plans. If you don’t you are selfish and irresponsible.
As to putting others lives in danger. Getting on the train tracks, trying to run into trucks, Using CO in an inclosed area, standing in front of a car etc. etc. and on and on. I totally agree with you that make you an asshole unless you have lost all of your senses and ability to function. Maybe even that is a good reason to do it before you get to that pt.? A bit like making your will out or planning your funeral before it happens, being responsible! Of course your real opinion is that suicidal people are selfish and undeserving and you are lying about being one of them. You have a different motive here and, was it you who stated how important the majority opinion in these things is (forgive me if it wasn’t) on this site who are truly suicidal at times would not agree with you that it is a selfish act. A desperate one yes (usually), not selfish. Always rare exceptions of course to everything though I suppose.
“Our sorry asses”. I think that shows how you feel about the MI. It maybe excusable like someone who for example when insulted severely by a black person about something using the “N-word” against them. In your case though I think it shows your true feelings and your motivations in commenting on this blog. WN
You attach a ‘value judgement’ to the word ‘selfish’, assuming I think being selfish is wrong. I don’t, not in all cases. Sometimes it is necessary to be selfish, for survival. I expect you (too) have been in a situation where you could not give someone emotional support when they really needed it because *you* needed all the emotional energy you had just to hold yourself together. Right? We even throw away friendships, good ones, close ones, because they demand of us to give up more ‘energy’ than we can afford; so, people who have relied on us are disappointed in us, may even feel betrayed by us. But we need that kind of energy to keep ourselves alive – right? Similarly, we may feel that *not* staying alive is the best course of action, and for some people, that might be the case from their perspective. Sometimes it is not possible to balance the interests of others without own best interests, but that does not mean it is not selfish to act in our own interests and against theirs – sometimes there is no right answer whatever you do. All I ask is that people at the end of their tether should give some thought to the damage they will do to others by ending their own lives. If they can bear that thought, go ahead. All I ask is that people in the desperate state of wanting to die should consider the others, to realise what damage they will do to others; if they do that and *still* feel the same way, fine.
But you forget that many suicide attempts (most?) are not intended to work but are the last desperate cries for help. I note *some* doctors can be contemptuous of people who do this because they feel these people are wasting their time. I disagree with them, but there you go! They might not have felt so desperate if a doctor, or doctors had listen to them in the first place and not (as is so often the case, in mine for one) been told to ‘pull yourself together’ instead of taking them seriously.
You seem to think that just because few people care about you that makes it alright to be inconsiderate to their feelings. I disagree. The majority of people are completely neutral about us because they don’t know us. But that does not mean they don’t care about people they don’t know if they find them in need of help. Read the newspapers and you will find numerous examples of people selflessly doing things to help others they don’t know, from the person who buys a “suspended coffee” to those who will risk their lives, even sacrifice them, to save someone else from death. People care when they are faced with the misfortune of others who are complete strangers. Indeed, many people give up their time to listen on the telephone to complete strangers who are desperate and considering suicide – the Samaritans are the best example I know. It is you who are delusional if you don’t believe complete strangers care about you – you just don’t know them!. Or is it you trying to justify your indifference to what your demise would do to these strangers, to justify why you should not feel any guilt about being selfish to them? Is it that you want to believe they do not care so you have an excuse not care about them? But what’s holding you back is that you DO care. You don’t want to but you do. How do I know? Because we are having this exchange of messages: You care about what I say enough to argue against me, so you care – maybe not in am altruistic way, about a stranger – me. If you didn’t care, you would not care about my views and we would not be having this dialogue … although I’m sure you’ll dispute this, proving my point just by arguing. :)
Well, I care iIn spite of the fact that you’re an argumentative, miserable sod who insults me! And the proof of that is in the fact that I am bothered enough to debate our sometimes contrary ideas. I can empathise with you – I know behind all that hostility is someone who does not want to die, but just for the pain to go away. If you really wanted to do it this exchange of messages would never have taken place. I empathise because first, I am a natural Empath (a psychiatrist told me this is common among people who are dysthymic, as I am) and I’ve also been in that situation, wanting to die just because the pain would not go away. But I got lucky – I eventually got help after years without it. I have not worked for 8 years because of my MI but I’ve survived the worse this time and I’m glad of that because I have seen my kids through first school into high school, I have seen them grow from kids into teenagers just a spit away from being young men. (As the only parent living at home for much of each year, I didn’t have a choice!) Yes, them needing me helped give me a reason to survive, as did the desperation of a close friend trying to cope with living in a country in crisis during their state of martial law – a letter that said “I don’t know what I would do if I didn’t have you to talk to,” pulled me back from the brink on that one occasion. But if the Black Dog comes back, if it wakes and starts to savage me as it has before, when the kids are not around to give me a reason to fight it, maybe I’ll choose to be selfish! But somehow, I doubt it – I’ve lived with BP, and survived it, for at least 40 years – chances are diabetes or some kind of vascular disease will do for me first, and that will be the end of it.
All this said, while I care about you, I am also selfish in that I care about my own MI than yours – I’m sure you will understand this. At present I am in a weakened state because my mother just died, there are domestic worries, the drip-drip Chinese torture of the dysthymia, is wearing, and the unremitting pain and inconvenience of a broken arm is laying me low, too. I need a store of the emotional energy to keep my head well above water, so I can’t spare much for emotionally draining exchanges as this. If I go ‘off-line’ it won’t be because I don’t care enough about you/your ideas, but because I care more about my own health.
Will,
Just so you know, the comments work fine but they only work to a certain number of layers deep. I think it’s six. This is for user interface reasons.
– Natasha Tracy
Thanks for the clarification Natasha. I am not a computer science grad like you, but I think I know what you mean, Though if it is what I think it doesn’t appear to be six layers thick. I’m sure you checked and I am wrong or am seeing it in a different way. I’m guessing you may mean six layers from the original from you and not from all “I’ll call it sub-comments”. Maybe a little staggering or something would help? I’m supposing you are your own webmaster, could be wrong and not even sure if that term is used or even applied anymore, something I should educate myself on.
I also must tell you, you are doing a great public service by keeping this blog going and using virtually no censorship other then to keep I suppose the sharks who don’t like people to have opinions at bay. I really mean that. I also greatly appreciate the work you put into It. I wish I could offer more as you are, other then my own opinions. I really hope to if I can someday. I know by now you truly believe in real debate and not what is just the acceptable and worthless in my opinion status quo. WN
Are you kidding? I wish someone had done that for me. Arlene seems wonderful and caring, and I wish I’d had the luck to have someone like her in my life, I would have gotten help when I needed it instead of bottling everything up.
The ends justify the means argument. Tell that to the girl when she applies for a residency in neurology at Johns Hopkins and even though she was the most qualified was mysteriously not even matched with the worst school. She now must go to the Congo or elsewhere for her training.
No one knows why? Or they do and have a very lame reason for it. Oh, I forgot. Those who contemplate suicide as children or adults aren’t intelligent or rational enough to attend a top rated medical school. She may as well have posted her meth lab on face book. Oh and when and if she does get in wait for the first malpractice suit and the cat is let out of the bag.
If REALLY keeping these records private were a concern then maybe she would have a chance. Sadly no such movement is ongoing in any real way and due to increased computerization of medical records and all else the US is doing for “privacy” any rational person doesn’t see this coming anytime soon. If ever. WN
As a parent of a child with mental health issues, I can say that I see both sides of the story, and this is why: First, My daughter has only come to me complaining of one symptom, insomnia, which I finally mentioned to the Doctor (pediatrician). However, he never took that symptom seriously as one to explore, so it was not addressed until we later did see a psychiatrist. We were always at the Dr. for check ups and other things and we would mention the insomnia, but he didn’t follow up on it. Finally, after she kept mentioning having trouble sleeping, I asked her to tell me more about it and what may be keeping her awake. She said “I can’t turn my mind off- it’s like my thoughts are racing all the time”. With a family history of bipolar and somewhat familiar with the disorder because of my education, that statement put out red flags. I started looking back at other behaviors and realized that there may be other signs of hypomania, so we started looking for professional help. Initially- three professionals would not take our concerns seriously, and the few others we told said it was likely “normal teen behavior”.
I think that there are more parents than you realize that are closely watching their kids and discussing it with their friends or even professionals, and being told that their kids are “normal” and have normal teen behavior or mood swings. I was told flat out by multiple mental health professionals that they would not diagnose a child with bipolar because the label was too stigmatizing at this age, regardless of the symptoms that they see. Our own psychiatrist has said that he will be very cautious before he will diagnose it (with good reason, obviously, but there is a point where you have to come to some sort of conclusion), but he has put her on a low dose mood stabilizer, without a formal diagnosis… I mean, he hasn’t even said to us, in the privacy in his office, what he thinks is going on with the mood issues (she has other diagnoses that are less “stigmatizing”,) much less writing something down on a piece of paper.
When a parent hears over and over again that x behavior and y behavior are normal, they will believe it, especially when they would like it to be true. Especially when you hear over and over again that “kids will be kids”. If I did not know what I know, I would have dropped it. But with my formal education and own additional research, I was well aware that what I have seen was “beyond normal” and that I had to push, push, push for help. Especially with both depression and bipolar, the line between “normal” and unhealthy can be very gray before it gets dangerous and until more education is done, the “typical” parent is really in the dark.
Good post Molly. Agree and understand for the most part. A bit confused though why formal education is better then formal? I have quite a bit of both but don’t see how one is better then the other. The formal is more structured yet more dependent on the current political environment etc. for solutions (which many, many times) is a very bad thing. The informal is also good in its own ways yet lacks any real direction and no checks and balances. Seems to me a good dose of both can be quite good. WN
I think the point of this is being completely missed. It isn’t about the parents asking. It’s about parents ignoring their kids when THEY are asking for help.
That is an awful story, Mary – and terribly sorry for your loss.
Natasha, I totally disagree with some of the other comments. I don’t believe you have to be a parent to have an opinion about mental health treatment for children. I have 2 kids and 2 stepkids and I still don’t think that someone’s opinion is invalid because they haven’t birthed a child.
I grew up with parents who didn’t believe in my depression. They thought it was teen angst or whatever. My terrible mood swings and anger problems were totally my fault. It wasn’t until college when I sought help on my own – against their wishes – that I was (incorrectly) diagnosed with depression. That’s another story and another 16 years until my proper diagnosis.
My point is that I lived what you are talking about. Yes, some kids are just teens and are experiencing hormonal or behavioral issues that are common in that age range, but many are not. If my daughters came to me with these kinds of issues I would immediately address them.
I feared (and sometimes still do) that my youngest daughter is bipolar. I am vigilant about it. During my divorce she exhibited major signs of emotional distress, so I got her help immediately and that was a major turning point for both her and me.
I am with you. Parents that ignore pleas for help are not being good parents. I understand the other side as well – worrying about the shame your children may feel, or worrying about how a label can haunt them for the rest of their lives (said as I try to get life insurance, which is not going to happen for me). This is no excuse. I don’t know that the outcome would have been any different for me – my depression was much easier to diagnose than bipolar back then, and I wasn’t very honest about the hypomania. However, knowing that my parents cared enough about me to put their own issues aside and get me help would have made a huge difference to ME.
As an aside, comments that are made as blatant advertisements annoy the shit out of me and I wish were not allowed on the site.
Oh disagree with me Cristina, we are in free speaking countries. But I am in a good position to comment on the teenager’s sense of confusion and coming to terms with a ‘top-to-bottom’ evaluation that feels very intimidating and overly clinical .
And I said quite reasonably that anyone who hasn’t been a parent of any description won’t have the ‘vulnerable angel’ bias of the sort that standard parents do. They may have all sorts of other connections and feelings.I had two people in my life who never had kids and found me as a ‘substitute’ of sorts. But I digress.
I just think Natasha is on slightly shaky ground to criticize something that is more instinctive and sub-conscious and not easily put aside when making what is a very tricky decision.
I hope you appreciate my informed experience on lackluster services – in fact you can’t ‘totally disagree’ as it’s a fact and I don’t need to go any further in defending it beyond this sentence.
Oh… there is a mild profanity at the end. Not even a fair sentiment, as someone made the effort to provide more information of interest. No obvious self-aggrandizement to my eyes..
As you said, free to disagree.
I found nothing helpful in the sales pitch other than a transparent sales pitch. As a blogger myself I find it “icky” to contribute nothing of substance to a conversation while trying to steer others away from it.
Either way I like the chance to hear other points of view. As a parent, I’m apparently allowed to have one on this thread :)
The old you are not a parent so you don’t understand argument. You weren’t in the war so you don’t get an opinion. You weren’t there, here etc and on and on so you can’t comment. Sorry but not a solid pt. of view. WN
Sorry, but would you……
Tell Nastasha what her bipolar is like for her?
Tell a blind person what blindness is like?
Should a person who has never been married give marital advice to a husband and wife?
What is the old saying “Until you have walked a mile in my shoes……….?”
There are many people who have gone to many “Professionals” and have gotten differing diagnoses for their conditions. You think a parent is just going to instinctively know all the answers? I had a sister who had horrible, HORRIBLE behavior problems and made everyone in her path miserable. She was probably suffering from mental illness, but she was so obnoxious and wouldn’t listen to anyone and BLAMED everyone for her problems that everyone fled from her. I wonder what the parents of those kids who were complaining to Natasha would tell her. Even with my knowledge of my difficult sister, I missed what was going on with my son. He was quiet, he hid it and slipped away from me.
Sorry someone here has a son and since you are a woman you don’t get an opinion on any male children. Since it was your sister and not you you also can’t comment on that. Please move on. Thank you. WN
What, don’t you know if they ignore it 18 years then it’s fully the child’s fault. No one saw anything wrong. must say though now that our govts. are tracking everything we do ruin their lives along with treatment even before they begin. You know this is true, especially for those children who will try to enter gov., higher levels of science and so on. Not sue if there is any real help for the BP or other MI. We are branded and should try as a goal to set up treatment etc. off the grid. WN
Natasha,
How many children do you have? What is your experience as a parent?
When there were suicides in my son’s high school, I sat both of them down and asked if they ever thought of killing themselves. One got very upset and and kept saying “No, mom….NO!” The other replied “Suicide is for losers.”
One of my son’s was suffering panic attacks and having lived through them myself I asked if he wanted to go talk to someone. He did. I asked the other son if he had any problems and wanted to talk to someone, he said he didn’t.
Both of my son’s said they wished they were not introverts, one said he wasn’t wired right. I told them it was natural to feel that way, but everyone feels like that at some point in their lives and it was okay. My husband and I talked about it and he laughed and said he said the same thing at that age.
I noticed my one son just was not himself. I asked him if he was okay, he said he was fine. I asked him if he was having panic attacks. He said it wasn’t like that. I asked him what it was like. He wouldn’t tell me. I told him that anxiety could be so bad that it could make a person want to commit suicide, I told him that there were a lot of people in our families that were alcoholics and I think they covered their anxiety with the drug. He just shook his head.
A week later we found a note and 13 days later his body. Upon going through his things I found a note book from many years before where he drew how he ended his life. In his computer he thought he was getting signs from God and having panic attacks and terrible anxiety. This was the son who said suicide was for losers and refused help.
Parents can ask, and ask and ASK, but if their child is evasive or plain won’t tell you, what can you do? How do you know the children telling you their stories are being truthful? Maybe they have been offered help, but it isn’t on their terms. Until you have raised a child, loved them like nothing else, don’t even try to judge parents who are probably doing their best to figure their kids out. Don’t throw stones.
I knew I wasn’t well – depression, I thought – in my late teens, maybe 15 or 16. My Dad said I had to ‘pull yourself together’. My GP (family doctor) said exactly the same. So, I slunk off, unable to pull myself together and feeling a failure because I couldn’t do just that! The result: Even as an adult, I was scared to ask a doctor for help lest I be turned away as I had been before. It took a real crisis (looking down the rail track at a train coming towards me) that finally got me to give one last shot at trying to get help … and that was over 30 years later.
I am a parent of a young adult who was finally correctly diagnosed with Bipolar 1 at age 18. He had been suffering from a variety of psychiatric symptoms since age 14. One thing you don’t raise is lack of access to mental health care. Did you see the 60 Minutes piece on this that ran on 1/26/14? Here’s a good article about it and a clip: http://blogs.plos.org/mindthebrain/2014/02/06/understanding-lack-access-mental-healthcare-3-lessons-gus-deeds-story/
I spent years banging my head against the system in my community trying to get my son help. There are very few child psychiatrists in our area and it was a 12 week wait to get him an appointment. All told he saw 2 psychiatrists, 1 psychologist and 3 therapists during his teenage years and none accurately diagnosed what was happening for him or offered meaningful assistance. It wasn’t until he had a full psychotic break and was hospitalized for 4 months that he was able to access care in our community that met his needs.
I can’t imagine how much worse it would have been if he hadn’t been doubly insured and if I hadn’t had the advocacy skills and support that we have.
Hi Robin,
Well, this post isn’t about the kind of parent that you are. I understand that parents and teens have a heck of a hard time getting access to quality services sometimes. My beef is with the parents who ignore the problem outright, not those who hit their head against the wall. Wall-hitting may hurt but it’s sort of a sign of good parenting.
– Natasha Tracy
Hmm.. A bit of clarification, but with a rather loose and ‘style-over substance’ final sentence. I know your style well enough now Natasha that you will gravitate to your intended readers and address their points . And to be fair, I might take the same approach if this was my living. I never was one to react well to either praise or constructive criticism, the latter of which is my intent in leaving comments here. Still I keep trying – arguably my own variant of cannonball against invincible brick wall.
Some people I meet happily say that they are uncompromising, and while determination is something I admire… this still stands as a sub-par, rushed and misleading article. I really hope you either follow it up at some point or just rewrite it full stop.
The possible intent to empathise and show parental instincts is possibly something I am not allowing for here, but it could only be seen with a ‘benefit of doubt’ mindset. Anyway I hope everyone here has a good Easter, I sure plan to – mental illness or no…
Good article. I think there are two things going on. First is a gap in knowledge from the parents. While some “don’t believe” in mental illness, others don’t know enough about the signs, or, as Martin suggests, how to pick out warning signs that may suggest potential mental health issues from the usual teenage crises. With how little people talk about mental illness, and more so for older people it’s likely their kids know more about mental health than they do.
Second thing is the ego, the denial, the fear of putting a label on will ruin the child’s life, or the perceived embarrassment to the parents if their own peer group finds out they’ve got a kid with mental health problems. That gets made even worse if they have one of the many family doctors who avoid mental health like the plague. While the parents in these cases really need to just suck it up for the good of their kid, it sure doesn’t happen often enough. Really sad that it’s only the lucky ones who actually find a way to get the help they need early.
Well I will kick off the comments here. And you know me well enough Natasha that I am not going to always agree with you. This particular article does confuse and frustrate me to some degree. You are obviously a polished speaker and I know that when I was a kid/ mid-teen I could be swayed to a strong degree by someone who came off as being an expert. So you had a platform and more than enough energy from this audience to get a strong reaction. An average speaker would have got probably some nods but a rather subdued interaction in the aftermath.
But the obvious issue for me is that many of those who sought help from their parents are just going through the usual fits-and-starts of adolescence. Many of these ‘angels’ are not behaving in the predictably bubbly and dependent fashion, they are starting to want more autonomy, more respect and to not be talked down to. However many people go through highs and lows at that age, and with diagnosis of personality disorders as well as mania/depression getting more frequent, there are nonetheless many ‘normal’ people who do not fit this ‘ill’ description. They can show symptoms but not need treatment. So forgive me if I am not following, but this anger that all these kids are not getting support may be true, but to just blame parents and not the school as well – who have in some ways *more* power and influence over these kids as they command a lion’s share of the monday-friday week – maybe I’m not ‘getting’ what you are trying to say?
My second reaction is perhaps more informed as no-one knows my own life experiences better than myself (!) I had a major confidence crusher in being diagnosed very young – a number of years earlier than in your case. And although it was the right method, it came at the wrong time and was delivered in the wrong way. It felt amazingly cold clinical and nonchalant. If I could wave a magic wand, I would have anyone in that same scenario getting someone to come and help the diagnosed youngster come fully to terms with this ‘label’ process. Someone who was either trusted or incredibly positive and could break down all the jargon and complex themes. Kids are smart but their capacity for reasoning is a way off people of our generations, Natasha.
My final points are pretty blunt – but thanks for getting to this part anyway (!). We all have egos… even the most delicate, most gentle types have them. Its choosing how and when to act on them that is the difference. I can’t say though that parents who love their kids and see them as flawless vulnerable babies, as that is the first image burned into their memories… I can’t say that motivation as something that ‘disgusts’ me. If I was a parent I probably would make my whole reply focus on that dynamic… as it is I find your POV valid to a small degree but glossing over the reality of being an outsider to the particular dynamic. Until a person becomes a parent they cannot totally outline all the good and bad stuff that other parents do… it’s just not a fair approach. It may read well in a coherent article with a firm purpose, but it is still somewhat flimsy at heart.
And how do you know that some of the parents aren’t trying alternate methods before resorting to professional help? Some may know through others that a particular avenue of help has been lacking… and so be reticent? In my own situation the family unit tried a good handful of experts, and one psychologist did more harm than good, but the exact details I save for a trusted few so won’t go on anymore.