Recorded: May 26, 2022

Snap Out of It! spoke with Saskia Lightburn-Ritchie, a person who lives with bipolar disorder and is the Chief Operating Officer (CEO) at My CWA (Cheshire Without Abuse), a charity in the United Kingdom. Thanks to Saskia’s experience with bipolar disorder, she designed her own role such that she can be a successful CEO. And she passed those supports and ideas down to her staff. Now, more than 60% of her employees have a mental illness and they have very low turnover because of how she treats her people — with respect, dignity, and what they need medically.

Saskia and I talk about what it’s like to work with bipolar disorder — in her other positions vs. today — and what it is she does to ensure that people with medical issues like mental illness can be successful at work. We also talk about the costs involved in these changes and the benefits this has brought her entire company.

The podcast is now available across podcast platforms:

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Video Recordings

Live video recordings are available on:

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Bipolar Wellness Plan

The bipolar wellness plan that Saskia mentions is on the way.

About Saskia Lightburn-Ritchie

Saskia Lightburn-Ritchie is the CEO of My Cheshire Without Abuse (My CWA), a domestic abuse organization in Cheshire, UK. Her company works to build a community where adults and children can live free from the fear of domestic abuse and runs a 24-hour helpline, among other things. But don’t get it confused, Saskia’s charity is no small potatoes. She works with more than 100 employees but does so in a way that allows each of them to succeed — even those with mental illness.

As a person with a long history of mental illness, Saskia has used her personal experience of bipolar disorder to shape an organization that really supports staff with mental ill health, including herself.

Transcript

(This transcript is auto-generated. Please excuse the mistakes.)

Natasha Tracy (00:00):
My apologies for the technical difficulties going live sometimes has its challenges. Welcome to Snap Out of It! The Mental Illness in the Workplace Podcast with me, Natasha Tracy, today, we are talking with Saskia Lightburn-Ritchie, the Chief Executive Officer of My Cheshire Without Abuse. She is joining us all the way from the UK. SIA has done something that I personally have always wanted to do. She has become a chief executive officer, so a CEO, while living with bipolar disorder, I find it incredible. She’s gonna talk about how she did this and how her mental illness has changed, how she manages her staff and the benefits that she offers them. And I wanna remind our audience, we are actually live, so pop your questions into the comment box and they might just be answered during the podcast. But before we get to Saskia, I just wanna remind people of a couple of things.

Natasha Tracy (00:50):
First off, just like I said, last week, mental health in the workplace is a very important topic and that’s because a hundred percent of people have mental health. Everyone from the CEO to the janitor can improve their mental health, but a group often left out of that conversation are those with mental illness and about 20%. That’s about one in five. People have a diagnosable mental illness in any given year from ADHD to anxiety, to bipolar disorder. These illnesses range from mild to severe. These 20% need to be a part of any conversation about mental health in the workplace. And that’s what we’re doing here. We’re making mental illness, the center of the conversation. So I’d like to continue with just a couple of facts about bipolar disorder. According to the American psychiatric association, the lifetime prevalence of bipolar disorder in adults is about 3% and 82% of people with bipolar disorder experience, serious impairment while 17% have moderate impairment. However, I would be remiss if I did not mention that people with bipolar disorder often have superior levels of creativity and can absolutely be productive in the workplace. And Saskia is a perfect example of this. Hi Saskia, welcome to the Snap Out of It! Podcast.

Saskia Lightburn-Ritchie (02:08):
Hi Nastasia. Thank you so much for having me. It’s great to participate.

Natasha Tracy (02:13):
Well, thank you. Tell me a little bit about yourself and how you came to be the CEO of My Cheshire Without Abuse, which you often shorten to My CWA.

Saskia Lightburn-Ritchie (02:24):
Yes. that’s right. We, we do. So I somebody that’s worked in the domestic abuse sector for a long time, this is actually my 29th year in the sector. And I became involved in the domestic abuse sector because I lived in a refuge myself when my children were young, had to flee an abusive marriage and was given a safe space to stay in that refuge. And after that, I really wanted to give something back. So I got involved in volunteering. Did, did some studying and also started to be employed in that sector. Between those years I did end up being very, very unwell with bipolar disorder. I ended up in and out of hospital. In those times three times I was sectioned in the UK. That’s an involuntary stay in a psych acute psychiatric unit. And I was 28 when I was diagnosed with bipolar disorder, but I had a job at the time where my boss was superb. She was incredibly supportive and I guess that’s really what made it possible for me to stay employed at a, an extremely critical time and really influenced me kind of moving forward for how I want to work myself and, and how I want to support other people to work.

Natasha Tracy (03:51):
I think that’s incredible having that positive experience right off the top I think would make a big difference for anyone cuz so many of us have negative experiences right off the top,

Saskia Lightburn-Ritchie (04:02):
Right? Yeah, absolutely. She, she is definitely Allison, who was my boss at the time, definitely somebody that I hold in high regard and who has really influenced the shape of, of the rest of my adult life. Really.

Natasha Tracy (04:19):
So can you tell me a little bit about what my CWA does for its clients?

Saskia Lightburn-Ritchie (04:25):
Yes. So we, we are a, a whole family domestic abuse service and that means that we work with every member of the family when it’s safe to do so, including the perpetrator of the harm within that family situation. We work with adult victims, adult perpetrators, children, young people in their own abusive relationships. We offer safe crisis accommodation refuge accommodation for those who need to flee. We also offer support in the community and we offer recovery programs, therapeutic interventions and behavior change programs. There’s a, there’s an awful lot going on.

Natasha Tracy (05:10):
Yeah, well you said it right. There’s an awful lot going on. So it must be really hard to manage all of that along with your bipolar disorder. So what does what is your job like as the CEO? Does the board support you and the way you handle your bipolar?

Saskia Lightburn-Ritchie (05:25):
The board are very supportive. Obviously I, I didn’t actually share that. I was bipolar when I first took on the role. I’d had a previous negative experience and I’d decided that it was too risky, really to go into a new role where I didn’t have a reputation and start from the offset by, by being honest about my condition. I think the job is relentless. Domestic abuse is relentless, certainly through COVID, it’s been incredibly challenging but every step of the way the board have been supportive. And since I did become open about being bipolar in 2015, I’ve had nothing but really the best support to be able to, to cope with my condition and also be able to instigate the changes that I’ve wanted to make in the organization. So they’ve been fantastic. They can be challenging and critical, but they are always very, very supportive.

Natasha Tracy (06:37):
That sounds incredible. That’s what we all want. Right. But I understand, as you just said, not all your employers were so supportive. Can you tell us a little bit about your previous employment experiences and the effect that that had on your bipolar disorder?

Saskia Lightburn-Ritchie (06:52):
Yes. absolutely. So as I mentioned, when I was diagnosed, I was in a role where I was very supported. But when I applied later applied for another job, which would’ve been just in a different area, no kind of progression, particularly I was just moving geographically and I was successful in applying for a role. It was a, a management role, which was not dissimilar from what I was already doing. And the, I, I had been, I disclosed on the form that comes with the application that I had bipolar disorder, but they don’t take that into accounting. The appointment only look at it afterwards. And the manager who would’ve been my direct line manager obviously found this idea that somebody with bipolar disorder could manage a community development team was, was just not realistic. She began to contact me asking me was it safe for me to manage people?

Saskia Lightburn-Ritchie (07:55):
Was it appropriate for me to manage people? What would happen if I became unwell? Whether or not I was able to be responsible or, or held accountable for any of the kind of responsibilities of the role. It was, it was devastating for me because I had previously had such a supportive environment and my approach had been to be 100% open. Because I, I do think that’s important, but it was this negative response that made me actually then decide not to be as open. When I came for this current role in the end, I did, I did make a complaint, a formal complaint, which was uphold or upheld, sorry, by the employer. But I just felt that that was not going to be a safe or comfortable space for me to be able to really do my job to the fullest of my ability. And so I did, I did withdraw from it that whole idea of, of what if you real is just ridiculous.

Natasha Tracy (09:06):
Yeah. So you, aren’t the first person to tell me that they had to leave their company in order to be successful in their career. And I know you won’t be the last, so I just wanna tell people out there, if you’re experiencing that Saskia here is an excellent example of how people bounce back from that. It can be so disheartening and so difficult when you have to leave a company because of something that isn’t your fault, but it’s something you can get past. And I just wanna say that,

Saskia Lightburn-Ritchie (09:33):
Have to agree with that. It, it was devastating at the time. It really did knock my confidence as well. And then you get that imposter syndrome starting to creep back in, and the questions that all the people are asking you end up questioning yourself. Because I know for me as a person with a, a serious mental illness like bipolar, I do a lot of reflecting. A lot of self-analysis a lot of trying to think, you know, how can I do better? How can I make this work? Mm. So yeah, I, I absolutely offer support to anybody who’s experiencing that it can completely be overcome and left in the background.

Natasha Tracy (10:12):
Hi folks, you are tuned in to Snap Out of It! The mental Illness in the Workplace Podcast. We are talking to Saskia, Light-burn-Richie. She is a CEO with bipolar disorder. Don’t forget if you have any questions, please pop them in the comment box. And we may just answer them on air. So Saskia, why did you decide to go public about your bipolar disorder considering you had had that incredibly negative experience?

Saskia Lightburn-Ritchie (10:38):
So I’d start, I’d started my new role as the CEO of my CUA in 2011 it was work that I was very familiar with. I was very comfortable with, but in a new geographic location where nobody knew me. So, and I’d had that bad experience, but over the years, there were a number of things that, that happened. So for example on one occasion, a member of staff came to me and said, well, does this client who needs to come into our refuge accommodation, but she’s got bipolar disorder. Surely we can’t accept her. If she’s got bipolar disorder, that was a real shock to me that hadn’t expected it from my own organization. And obviously I was able to resolve that, but still, still, wasn’t entirely sure about coming out about it really, which is, is, is what it is at the end of the day.

Saskia Lightburn-Ritchie (11:40):
And then we had a couple of clients in particular who were diagnosed with bipolar disorder which had started before the abuse that they’d experienced, but had been exacerbated by the trauma of the domestic abuse. And, and as many of your listeners will know, can be really hard to diagnose bipolar quickly because you need to see the patterns over a number of years often before that can happen. These clients, one of them in particular was, was actually telling me that she felt like her life was over with this diagnosis, that she’d never be able to work. She’d never have a life that she was satisfied with. And I just felt the weight of responsibility really to provide a, a more positive role model for that to, to be able to say, openly, look at being where you are. And I genuinely understand, and there is a future for people with our diagnosis and there are ways to, to support that. So at that point I decided absolutely I could no longer continue, not in this role where I was coming across people with the same diagnosis as me on a regular basis to almost pretend that , I wasn’t the same as them. So I did I did come out to, to everybody professionally about my diagnosis.

Natasha Tracy (13:11):
It sounds to me like you came out for other people, which I have to say is a huge gift that you’ve given people. I am not saying that it’s the right thing to do for everyone, but certainly in your case, you’ve given your organization, the people you work with and all of your clients, a gift. So thank you for that. And when

Saskia Lightburn-Ritchie (13:30):
You went and it’s beneficial to me too, so I don’t, I don’t, it wasn’t, you know, it, it does make a difference when you can be congruent with yourself in every area of your life, but I absolutely wouldn’t recommend it unless you’re a hundred percent sure it’s the right thing to do.

Natasha Tracy (13:45):
When you did go public in this role, how were your ex reactions that, how were the reactions at that time?

Saskia Lightburn-Ritchie (13:52):
Well, well, it was largely non reactions and I think that’s because, although I call it coming out you know, I, it act in actual fact, I didn’t do any kind of big announcement. What I did was quietly let the team around me know that I was bipolar and that it was fine for them to talk about it. So it became known almost just by word of mouth. That almost as if, oh, didn’t, you know, Saki is bipolar or, well, our, our chief execs bipolar. So maybe you could speak to her, if you worried about what, what this diagnosis is going to mean to you, and that spread across all the partners we work with. So the police and crime commissioner has twice in a meeting, just very off the cuff said to me, well, you are a user of mental health services.

Saskia Lightburn-Ritchie (14:48):
Aren’t you just asking, what’s your opinion, just in, it’s not an issue. And that has been phenomenal for me. It, I think it was a combination of the timing but also not making a big deal out of it. All these people already knew me professionally. They knew that I was good at my job. They knew our organization was excellent. You know, we’ve achieved lots of awards and lots of, of, of interest in our field. So it just became an interesting bit of extra information, which I, I definitely would advise anybody to, to go down that route if from when they are ready to talk about their diagnosis, because it meant I didn’t have any kind of shock horror or any of those weird reactions that I’ve had previously in the past of, oh my God, can you actually do this job? People already knew that I, I was doing this job.

Natasha Tracy (15:46):
Sam just popped into the chat and said, the stigma is real, which I believe is true. And then says, I believe that visibility makes a huge difference and we can potentially help others and ourselves by being authentic, which is exactly what you’re saying, Saskia. And I think you’re speaking to a lot of people and about a lot of people, when you say that,

Saskia Lightburn-Ritchie (16:07):
I, I think it’s a massive decision and I don’t underestimate the, the, the size of this decision to make, because I have been at the wrong end of this and had people that’ve worked with treating me as if I’m fragile or they can’t actually have a sensible conversation with me about a difficult subject, but I do genuinely agree with that, with that comment that it’s the only way to tackle stigma in the end, but you have to make sure you are in a good place to do that, and that it’s not going to be to your detriment, I think because doing it for, for, for yourself and others, you have to make sure that you’re going to be able to, to cope with any, any comeback that might happen.

Natasha Tracy (16:54):
So, as you said earlier, bipolar disorder is a serious mental illness. So we have lots of viewers who have bipolar disorder, and I know they’re gonna wanna know how do you manage your mental illness in the role of a CEO?

Saskia Lightburn-Ritchie (17:07):
Well, I wish that I had kind of a simple magic w way of suddenly being able to manage a condition like this, which is as anybody who experiences it will know it it’s unpredictable. You can’t trust your own brain. That’s how I’ve certainly felt a lot of the time over the years. I think it’s getting to know yourself and understand what your triggers are. I have a very comprehensive self-management plan. That’s 12 pages long. That, that is really very detailed that I’ve, I completely review every few months to make sure that if I’ve learned anything new or if there’s anything different that all those changes have been there. I share that with key people in my life. I take time when I need it. I try to recognize when I, I notice warning signs. So I’ve, becoming more high in mood, I’ll take on new projects, I’ll get much more creative, much more innovative, much more enthusiastic. And I rely on the people around me, particularly my family to kind of just give me a warning note so that I can realize that that might be happening. I find it much harder to be aware when my mood is dipping into a depressive episode. So again, that’s to do with family I think a healthy diet mood tracking for me, and I know it’s not for everybody, but the medication regime that I’m on, although it has its downsides for me, that that really does help me to stay stable. And just that self-awareness every day, what, what am I supposed to be doing today? Have I got the energy for that? You know, I, I try to live my life so that I’m, I’m always aware of the kind of energy that I’ve got available to me.

Saskia Lightburn-Ritchie (19:11):
And if I don’t feel that I have, I give myself the permission to take the time I need to just not, not do anything. And I have limits to that. So that, that doesn’t help me spiral downwards. I mean, talking about self-management, you, you could go on for days, but I do think that that’s the trick is to be as aware of ourselves as, as we can be so that you know, it doesn’t interfere with our parts of our life that we, we judge to be important, and it doesn’t interfere with the people that are around us as much as possible.

Natasha Tracy (19:49):
So when you talk about a 12 page document, that’s quite a document. Did you write that document through a particular like process or therapy or program, or is this something you’ve put together over years?

Saskia Lightburn-Ritchie (20:02):
It is something that has been in process for about 18 years now and, and recently a, a friend of mine from America who I’ve never met on the internet in a bipolar group that I’m part of, he took it and made it so that anybody can kind of work their way through the same process. It’s it originally came from a self-management program that I did. That was a, a kind of, I don’t know what you call it when you, you, I went away for a week with a group of all the people who were bipolar and there was a facilitator and we all worked on our own kind of timeline triggers and looking at a plan that would help us. And that was the first version. And then over the years, it’s just grown and undeveloped. I’m happy to share my email address if anybody wants to get a copy of the blank version, or I can send it to you to put on the side.

Natasha Tracy (20:59):
I’m, I’m happy to put it on the website. So once we get this recording up I will include the document so that anyone who wants to can download it, thank you so much for offering that Saski. I really appreciate it. No problem.

Natasha Tracy (21:11):
So folks, this is Snap Out of It! And we are talking with Saskia light burn Richie, who is a CEO who lives with bipolar disorder, and we are still taking your questions, pop them into the comment box, wherever you’re watching, and we may answer them on air. So my understanding is you offer some amazing benefits to your employees, and they’re not standard benefits that people would normally get. Can you tell us a little bit about that?

Saskia Lightburn-Ritchie (21:39):
Yes, definitely. That they are not standard you’re right. We, well, we start off just recognizing that the workforce is not a fine, just a financial element of your business. It’s, it’s made up of people and those people have mental health, as you say, whether that’s positive or negative, and everybody can work on improving it. We pay a living wage to all of our staff, from the people who clean our premises right through to our therapeutic staff. We make sure that people aren’t worried about salary, so they get paid time off sick. And we also have really good paid annual leave packages for our staff. But on top of that, we offer free therapy paid for free counseling. And if somebody is feeling UN unwell or is starting to recognize that they’re under a bit more stressed than usual we pay free fully paid mental health days for people so that they can take the break they need.

Saskia Lightburn-Ritchie (22:51):
We also know that people have personal lives and family lives, and those are not always straightforward. So we offer flexible hybrid working patterns. People can work from home. We also offer carers leave for people if they’ve got caring responsibilities and compassionately for when things in life go wrong, because they do for all of us at different times go wrong. Every member of staff has the opportunity to create a wellness, recovery reaction plan, which is a wrap plan. And that’s about how can we help to keep you as well as you want to be. And what do we do if that starts to go wrong? So we know that in advance, we can recognize it. They can recognize it, and we offer work adjustments to the workload and the responsibility levels of people. If they do need to be supported through a period of lower productivity, if somebody has been off due to their mental ill health, then we have really robust return to work plans.

Saskia Lightburn-Ritchie (23:58):
So we bring people back into the workplace on a phased return. So they’re not going from zero to 60. In five minutes, they’ve got a, a whole month to build up to being back to their normal full-time hours. And that really, I think makes a big difference because the fear of coming back to work often is what puts people often rejoining the workplace after a period of mental I health. And as an organization, we have a, a mental health strategy. And we also have a wellbeing strategy. Both of those have got lots of different elements that people can benefit from from the page. Mental health days to, you know, will help you out if you suddenly have a financial issue. So there’s a, an attached fund to help us to pay for one of things that people might need that might help them to just feel like coming back to work is, is the thing that they’re able to do. You know, and that can be anything from repair to the car, or, you know, has the washing machine broken? Is this something we can help that person out with?

Natasha Tracy (25:08):
So I understand that you, you brought out the term wrap, which is wellness, recovery action plan. Yeah. I just want to pull that term out of what you just said, because that’s a term that people with bipolar disorders should know. If you’ve never heard of a wellness recovery action plan, Google it it’s something that absolutely it sounds like Saskia you get everyone to do it, which is amazing, but certainly people with certainly people with mental illness should be familiar with it and should decide whether it’s right for them, but it’s, it’s a very good practice. And so I understand that these benefits must be amazing for the people who work for you. I mean, we discussed it earlier and you said you have very low turnover. I’m surprised. Do you have any but what about the cost to the company? How do you think the cost benefit analysis looks at looks like for your company?

Saskia Lightburn-Ritchie (26:01):
I mean, it I’d be lying if I said there was no cost, obviously there is I’ve calculated the cost outside of pain and living wage, which is just something that we, as an organization believe every organization should be doing. And it turns out that it probably costs about an extra thousand pounds and whatever that is in, in us dollars per worker per year having said that the cost of recruiting a new member of the team in to our organization can, can run it around four to 5,000 pounds. And you can take three to six months where you’ve not got the team or the staff member doing what they need to do. So having a high turnover, having staff members who don’t feel able to come back to work, there’s a significant cost to not doing it well. Which I believe massively offsets any kind of initial concerns you might have about the cost to doing it really well. And supporting people.

Natasha Tracy (27:05):
So based on the economics of your particular business, even with all these benefits, which sound amazing, which no one I know has the company still comes out ahead. So it sounds like other companies need to be listening to you. That’s what it sounds like.

Saskia Lightburn-Ritchie (27:20):
Have the time, sorry, we just, in the time aren’t, we, where people aren’t, people are saying, nobody’s applying for these jobs, we need them not to just be applying, but to be staying. And that’s what treating people well does. And the benefits of having people in the workforce who’ve got lived experience of, of mental ill health are huge creativity, innovation, just empathy, particularly in a business like ours, it’s, it’s definitely worth it.

Natasha Tracy (27:51):
Well, thank you for emphasizing that people with mental illness while there are obviously some issues with them at work, there are also benefits to having people with mental illness at work. And if nothing else, what you see is a mosaic of ideas, instead of just one idea, people with mental illness do have that creativity and that spark that sometimes can bring about an idea that is new. And as you said, innovative. So thank you for mentioning that. So finally, do you have any advice for other people running companies and with regards to how they treat their employees with mental illness?

Saskia Lightburn-Ritchie (28:28):
Yes. I mean, I do believe that the more you invest in the people that work for you and the better diversity you have in the workforce and in particular around people with different types of mental health and neurodiversity that, in fact, it’s very beneficial. I did a quick Google search just before coming on here. And presenteeism, which is when people turn up for work, but aren’t very you know, very present and not actually effective. Yeah. Not very effective. Yeah. Yeah. Is estimated to cost in the UK 15 billion pounds a year and in the us 150 billion pounds a year. I mean, I think if you could take just a small proportion of that recognize that having staff that are physically and mentally present, self-aware honest, loyal, and doing fantastic creative work particularly in service industries and support industries. Then it’s got to be good for the bottom line at the end of the day.

Natasha Tracy (29:34):
Thank you so much. I love the way you’re looking at that. And I hope that there are people and companies out there that are listening to you and learning from you because you’re certainly leading the way in that area. Thank thank you. So I do wanna talk, so I do wanna ask at least one question here, cuz I had one sent in ahead of time. If you have a question for Saskia, please just pop it in the comment box and I’ll make sure she gets it. But I do wanna ask this question. Nathan sent me a question ahead of time. And Nathan asks, what advice do you give people with bipolar disorder who want to become executives?

Saskia Lightburn-Ritchie (30:11):
I think to be an effective executive, you need to have the things that bipolar gifts us because it takes a lot from us doesn’t it as a condition, but it does also gift us with quite unique ways of seeing the world, the capacity to see the big picture, to strategize, to understand links that others maybe don’t see to really innovate. And those are all the things that are needed in an executive. I’ve thought about this a few times over the years it’s really hard to get from those frontline roles where you basically, what you need is, is consistency and reliability above all those other things. So you need to try to find ways to make those parts of your work shine. And the people that progress in my organization are the people who have those skills to look at the big picture, to really understand how different roles work to look at the horizon and see what’s coming you know, politically, technologically economically those are skills that we have because we’re constantly looking at the horizon to make sure that nothing’s on the, on the verge of causing those problems.

Saskia Lightburn-Ritchie (31:30):
Yeah. And so I, I do think, you know, really look at yourself, try to get rid of any of that kind of underlying imposter syndrome, where we think that we focus on the negatives and what we can’t do. Let’s focus on what we can do that so many others can’t because they don’t have our skills, they don’t have our vision. And they don’t always have our capacity to make things work and solve problems. So focus on, on those positive things I think, and that will really take you forward.

Natasha Tracy (32:03):
Thank you so much. I love the way you’re looking at it and that makes so much sense to me. I don’t think I looked at it quite that way when I was in a corporate world, but I think it’s a great way to look at it. So we have Lynn, Lynn has come in and said, thank you, Saskia. You are a brilliant example. Fantastic. That you can prove your case and the bottom line. So to have your understanding with person’s colleagues would be priceless. So thank you so much, Lynn. I appreciate that comment. And Anita hi. I just wanna say hi to Anita. Who’s been commenting over on Facebook as well. Nice to see you. And I think that’s about it for today, but what I wanna say is thank you so much for being here and providing such a positive account for people.

Natasha Tracy (32:52):
I will say that before we had this podcast, I said that it would be inspirational. So I put all this weight on your shoulders to be inspirational, but you totally have been inspirational. So I would just like to thank you Saskia Lighturn-Richie from My CWA for being with us today. I know it has inspired countless others to keep on trying, even in the face of a serious mental illness.

Natasha Tracy (33:14):
Folks, if you’re watching, join us at the same time next week, that’s at 2:00 PM Eastern for a live stream with Gabe Howard. Gabe is an award-winning podcaster and mental health advocate who lives with bipolar disorder. He’s gonna talk to us about what it’s like, what it was like for him to work with bipolar disorder before he was diagnosed after diagnosis. And then finally getting fired because of bipolar disorder drop by the podcast website for more information that’s at snapoutofitpodcast.com. And if you’d like to be a guest on the Snap Out of It! Podcast, check out the website and fill out the guest application again, that snapoutofitpodcast.com. My name is Natasha Tracy. I hope you have a great week with great mental health.