Recorded: July 21, 2022

Snap Out of It! The Mental Illness in the Workplace Podcast with Natasha Tracy talks to lawyer Julia Stephanides (@legally.holistic on Instagram). She schools us on the rights people with mental illness have at work and how you can use those rights to better navigate working with a mental illness.

Learn things like:

• Are all mental illnesses really considered disabilities?
• Can an employer not promote you because of your mental illness?
• Do employers have to accommodate your needs because of a mental illness?
• What is a “reasonable accommodation” at work for a person with a mental illness?
• Do you have a right to paid medical leave?
• How do you best advocate for yourself at work?

Your Legal Rights as a Person with a Mental Illness at Work

All these questions and more are addressed by Julia. Plus, we take your questions. Don’t miss out on this valuable chance to know your rights.

The podcast is now available across podcast platforms:

• Spotify (follows)
• Apple Podcasts
• Google Podcasts
• Sticher

And elsewhere.

(Note: There is one profane word in this episode.)

About Julia Stephanides

A graduate of Berkeley Law School, Julia Stephanides practiced corporate law for Silicon Valley startups before becoming an employment lawyer. She has represented workers facing discrimination, harassment, and other wrongful employment practices, with a focus on women’s rights cases. As part of this work, she represented many people with health issues. She counseled and advocated for clients who were denied medical leave or retaliated against for taking it, and clients who needed accommodations in the workplace. Now, she works for a labor union in Los Angeles.

For most of her career, Julia has had health issues of her own. Her experiences in the conventional medical system were challenging and left her without sufficient support, so she dug into the research and various healing modalities and created her own roadmap for folks with health challenges. The first step on this roadmap is advocacy–knowing your rights and becoming empowered to stand up for yourself at work, at home, and with your doctors. The roadmap also includes things like eating in a way that supports your body and mind, connecting with the right doctors, nervous system support, and community.

This is how Julia’s consulting practice was born. Legally Holistic serves as a home base and navigation system for people facing health challenges. Feel free to follow along for free resources or reach out for personalized guidance: @legally.holistic and legallyholistic.com.

Transcript

Natasha Tracy (00:00):

Welcome to “Snap Out of It! The mental illness in the Workplace Podcast” with me, Natasha Tracy. Today we are talking with Julia Stephanides, a labor and employment lawyer who has represented employees in discrimination, harassment, disability, equal pay and protected leave cases. She’s going to talk to us today about what our rights are as people with mental illness in the workplace.

Natasha Tracy (00:21):

I want to remind our audience that this is a live stream, so pop your questions for Julia into the comment box at any time, and they might just be answered during the podcast. But before we get to Julia, I just want to remind people that while workplace mental health is very important, we’re actually here to discuss, specifically, mental illness in the workplace. And these are not the same thing. Twenty percent of people have a diagnosable mental illness, but everybody, 100% of people have mental health. And we aim to shine the light on the 20% of people who actually have a mental illness.

Natasha Tracy (00:55):

Now, one quick note about our programming today, Julia is extremely knowledgeable and we are honored that she is here to help. But keep in mind that all situations are unique and she can only give us general information. For specific information on your situation, you may have to contact a lawyer personally.

Natasha Tracy (01:12):

Hi, Julia. Welcome, “Snap Out of It!”

Julia Stephanides (01:16):

Hello. Thank you so much for having me.

Natasha Tracy (01:19):

I’m excited you’re here. We are so glad to hear about this really important topic. So, tell me a little bit about yourself.

Julia Stephanides (01:27):

I’m happy to share. I can certainly do that. So, you pronounced my last name so beautifully. I just wanted to give you kudos for that because that never happens. But yeah, I’m a labor and employment attorney. I’ve spent most of my career representing workers rather than companies. I graduated from Berkeley Law and I am licensed to practice in California. So that’s just, you know, general disclaimer that none of none of the things that I’m saying constitute legal advice. And, you know, if you do have specific legal questions, make sure to talk to an employment lawyer in your state. In addition to being a lawyer, I have also been dealing with some chronic illnesses for the last, gosh, five to seven years.

Julia Stephanides (02:20):

It’s gotten particularly bad, you know, in the last three years. And, you know, I’ve had this health journey of my own and I’ve become really passionate about things that I didn’t used to know anything about, like polyvagal theory, the nervous system, functional medicine, nutrition, things like that. I’ve always loved food and cooking, and it’s been really fun to start learning how to make some of my favorite recipes a little bit healthier. But you know, I’ve also become passionate about, you know, mental health and, and mental illness. <Laugh> not passionate about people having mental illness, but, you know, helping you know, people try to feel better and also to get, you know, the support that they need at work and beyond. So I’m very excited.

Natasha Tracy (03:04):

Thank you so much. So, you’ve mentioned that you’ve had your own journey with chronic illness. What exactly have your experiences with the healthcare system been like?

Julia Stephanides (03:19):

Well I want to say I’m certainly grateful for some of the excellent doctors that I’ve seen, but I think, like many people with chronic illness, I’ve had a really tough time in the conventional medical system. And being someone who’s very into, like, you know, I’m highly educated. I’m very generally trusting of our institutions and establishments here in the United States. And it was very disillusioning for me to to realize that there’s just a a lack of understanding of what causes chronic illness and how to treat it in the western, you know, conventional medical model. So when my symptoms started, they were pretty vague. It was like dizziness, lightheadedness, chronic fatigue, ear ringing, you know, things like that. And, and my doctors just, I could tell they, they almost seemed annoyed by me because yeah, all my testing came back normal. And, and then they, they would literally say things like, your labs look great, great news, you’re in, you’re in great health, so you’re good.

Julia Stephanides (04:21):

And I was like, what do you mean I’m good? I’m having all these new symptoms that I’ve, I’ve never had before and I can barely function <laugh>, like I don’t know if I’m good. And so then they very quickly, you know, pass me to a psychiatrist and say that this is all just stress. And I think that’s something they often do when they don’t know what’s going on. Particularly with women. I was finally diagnosed with chronic vestibular migraines and even then I was so grateful to get a diagnosis, but you know, I said, that’s so odd. I’ve never had headaches or migraines before, so I wonder what’s causing this? Like, what’s something must be going on? And the migraine specialist just sort of like cocked his head to the side and chuckled and he was like, we don’t know.

Julia Stephanides (05:05):

We don’t know lots of things we don’t, we don’t look at causes. We just, we’ll just help you treat them. And he kind of was like, here’s a list of medications you can try and, and I was just surprised, you know, I was surprised. And I, I think that is kind of the, the medical model is often, like, with chronic illness, we’re not even gonna try to identify what’s, what’s going on. We’re just going tohelp you medicate it. And unfortunately, I don’t tolerate medication. Well, none of the medications were helpful for me, so I started down a road of like looking for answers elsewhere because I was unfortunately, you know, not getting what I needed there. So I, that’s where I kind of got more interested in functional medicine and somatic therapy and things like that. And yeah, I just think there’s a lack of understanding of the nature of chronic illness and, and how to, how to interact with chronic illness patients in a way that’s not dismissive and that doesn’t add more trauma to the experience and in a way that actually is effectively treating, you know, what’s going on with them.

Julia Stephanides (06:04):

I think this is a major gap in medical knowledge and understanding, and I hope that it’s going to be addressed in the future. But to answer your question, that was long-winded, but it didn’t drive my specialization choice, actually. I because I was interested in labor and employment law long before I started having health issues. I just think this area of law is really interesting. And, you know, I’ve always cared about workers’ rights and advocating for people, particularly people who are oppressed by our social systems. So representing workers just seemed like a natural fit. And then it ended up kind of dovetailing that, you know, some of the work I did was for people who had disabilities.

Natasha Tracy (06:40):

Well, thank you. I thank you for being so open about your own personal journey. I know that many people with mental illness would have a parallel experience as one with a different kind of chronic illness. I call mental illness, a chronic illness. It is for many of us, and certainly our experiences often are very similar to what you described.

Natasha Tracy (07:00):

So, switching gears just slightly here, what is the one thing that people with mental illness don’t know about their rights in the workplace?

Julia Stephanides (07:12):

Oh, I mean, there’s probably a lot of things. And I, I guess that’s kind of the, that’s kind of the thing. I think there’s a lot of people who don’t even realize that there are laws that protect them. They think that, you know, their condition maybe isn’t severe enough or they don’t even know the laws and they don’t realize that they’re entitled to certain protections. And I can relate to that because as someone’s struggling with these migraines for a very long time, it, even though I was practicing employment law, it didn’t even occur to me that I would be entitled to a medical leave or that I would be considered a person with a disability under the law. And I just sort of, you know, struggled through it and was ultimately, like I had a supervisor suggest that I go on medical leave and I was like, oh, I can do that. But I think that people don’t realize that they’re entitled to these protections and maybe they don’t think that their condition counts as a disability or they don’t think it’s severe enough to be considered a disability.

Natasha Tracy (08:07):

So, one of the things that I found out where I was working in the office last time was that mental illness could be considered a disability. I actually never really thought about that either in my case or anyone else’s, but can you tell us what the definition of disability is and what mental illnesses might fall into that category?

Julia Stephanides (08:30):

Yes. Well, that’s a big question, so bear with a long answer, but you know, the laws that protect people with disabilities in the United States vary by state. There is a federal law called the Americans with Disabilities Act, and that’s, I’ll refer to that as the ADA. And this applies to companies with 15 or more employees, including state and local governments. So you’ll, you know, if you went to work for an exciting new startup and you’re one of the first employees, you’re, you’re likely not gonna be protected by the ADA. It also doesn’t cover independent contractors. So, you know, there’s been a lot of talk lately about the, the gig economy and people having more freedom. One of the drawbacks to that is that if you’re an independent contractor, you lose almost every protection of employment law. So there are definitely benefits to being like a W2 employee because you’re protected by these employment laws and that includes the ADA.

Julia Stephanides (09:27):

So, some states do have different minimums. So the Fair Employment and Housing Act in California applies to employers with five or more employees. So you would wanna make sure to check the disability discrimination laws in your state. You can just Google this and often you’ll come up with what you need. But just know that the ADA is the minimum standard for all states. And so, with that said, the definition under the ADA the ADA says that a person with a physical or mental impairment that substantially limits a major life activity is disabled and therefore protected. So, you know, major life activities include things like seeing sleeping, learning, hearing breathing, thinking, speaking, concentrating, walking, communicating, caring for oneself. So it’s a pretty broad definition in my opinion, and it can cover a lot more than you think. There’s not a list of conditions that are considered disabilities under the ADA, it’s sort of a case by case determination, but, you know, generally things like blindness, deafness, or paralysis or physical disabilities. But then the definition is much broader. So it can include conditions like depression, PTSD, anxiety, bipolar disorder, and things like fibromyalgia, migraines you know, as long as they’re severe enough. So, you know, mental health issues are something.

Natasha Tracy (10:51):

Yeah, I think what you said there actually is really critical, which is severity, right? So you might have a mental illness and it might not be very severe, in which case it’s not a disability. Or you might have a mental illness that is very severe, in which case it may be considered a disability. And so severity might be the key to think about when you think about mental illness rather than specific illnesses.

Julia Stephanides (11:16):

Yeah, I I think that’s right because I think what you want to look at is whether or not it falls within that definition. So do you have a mental impairment that substantially limits a major life activity for you? So, you know, do you have a mental impairment that substantially limits your ability to think, speak, concentrate, a lot of mental, you know, a lot of anxiety can definitely impair your concentration and your focus. Depression can majorly affect your sleeping, your, your communication with others, you know? So a lot of these things do fall within that.

Natasha Tracy (11:49):

I think one thing that you haven’t mentioned, but that I just want to add is that if it becomes an issue getting disability, try to have your doctor document these things for you. So, if you’re having trouble sleeping, try to make sure that’s in your medical records. If you’re having trouble communicating, that’s something that needs to be in your medical records because that’s your backup, right? Your doctor is your backup. You can claim that you’re having trouble, but it’s good when it’s documented. Would you agree with that?

Julia Stephanides (12:18):

Yes. I mean, I think that getting your doctor’s support is extremely important. So, right. This is different than like going on disability and that I’ll talk about that later. But if you, if you want to, you know, be protected in the sense that if your employer fires you or something and you think it’s related to your mental health issues or if they refuse to give you a reasonable accommodation, yes, it’s, it’s great to have your medical records support whatever you’re claiming at work. And just generally, that’s really good practice to have all of this documented. So, you know, that’s a big part of why like, you know, even though I don’t feel that I’m necessarily getting a lot out of some of my conventional doctors, I do have like a neurologist who But I do continue to see them and document my progress with them and tell them what my symptoms are and what, you know, I’m having trouble at work, I’m having, you know, I I’m not able to concentrate long enough to write a brief.

Julia Stephanides (13:13):

Because I wanna make sure there’s a record of that in case I ever do need to go on long-term disability or something like that. So I think that was a really good point. And I do just, Natasha, can I also just say what the protections are? You have these disabilities under the law. So the ADA basically says that if you have a disability and you can perform your basic job duties, your employer can’t harass, demote, or fire you or pay you less, or basically just can’t treat you poorly because of your disability, they also can’t reject a job applicant because of a disability. So that’s kind of the protection there. And, you know, it’s just good to know that even though mental illness can be kind of stigmatized, it’s really not something that a job is supposed to use.

Natasha Tracy (13:59):

So, if you did have if you decided that your mental illness qualified as a disability, how would you actually tell your employer and what specifics do you actually have to tell them?

Julia Stephanides (14:14):

Well, that’s kind of, that’s a tough question because you don’t, you, so you don’t have to disclose it at all. Like, this is really a, a case by case analysis for you. And it really depends on your level of trust in the organization and your relationship with your supervisors. There’s always kind of a risk benefit analysis because if you decide to disclose that you have a mental health condition in the workplace, you know, unfortunately there are some people who still have, you know, biases against people with chronic, well with, with mental health conditions and with, you know, physical chronic health conditions and may think, oh, will this person really be able to get the job done? Are they going to be erratic or unreliable? And,you know, that’s, that’s always a risk. And,I think it’s, you know, it’s certainly something you’re gonna wanto to disclose if you think you’ll need the protections of the law, like if you would like to take a medical leave or if you want to request a reasonable accommodation.

Julia Stephanides (15:12):

But if there’s, if you don’t, if you have a disability, but you feel that you’ve been able to do your job and it’s not affecting your work I, I don’t see a need to disclose unless, again, like, unless you’re, you’re close with your colleagues and your supervisors and you wanna share. And personally, I think it’s really great to do that because I think we need to remove the stigma of this stuff, particularly after, you know, all of this covid mess, there’s a lot more people with mental illness than there were before. And I mean, I think one of the symptoms it is long covid is, is depression and anxiety. So, you know, so this is something it’s affecting a lot more people than it used to, and I think we really need to just start talking about it openly. But that said, as you know, someone who cares about employee rights, I don’t want you to put your job on the line and, you know, so use your, use your judgment.

Julia Stephanides (16:05):

I personally, I’m close with my supervisors and I do share about, you know, my, I I have Lyme disease and I think that’s kind of the root cause of a lot of my issues. And I also have mast cell activation syndrome, and I’ve, I’ve shared that with my supervisors. I feel that they’re understanding, and I also know, you know, I have needed to take medical leave, so I wanted them to understand when I took it that it wasn’t coming out of the blue. Right. But I do think it’s just, you know, we can talk more about best practices later, but I think it’s really important that you act with integrity with all of this stuff and like navigate your work very skillfully in the way that like, you know, you’re not erratic, you’re not dropping the ball on things if you’re, there’s an assignment you can’t finish because you’re not feeling well that you communicate that. Right. You want to be seen as reliable and dependable and communicative. And you know, typically in that instance, like if you’re, if you are doing your job well and you’re, you’re acting with integrity, my hope would be that the workplace, you know, would welcome whatever health issues you have. As long as it’s not like drastically impairing your ability to do your job. Of course, that’s not always the case. And sometimes, you know, you just get people who are uncomfortable with that.

Natasha Tracy (17:18):

If I were to talk to my supervisor because I have bipolar disorder and it’s a disability, do I have to tell my supervisor that I have bipolar disorder or do I just have to tell them that I have a disability? Like what specifically do I have to tell them?

Julia Stephanides (17:35):

All right. So it depends for what purpose you’re telling them. If, you know, that’s the, that’s the key issue. And I think that yes. We are gonna talk a bit about reasonable accommodations if you’re requesting a reasonable accommodation, meaning that you need something to change about like your work schedule or your office or something like thatyou do need to disclose that you have a disability In order to be considered for a reasonable accommodation. So all you need to disclose is, you know, you have to say, you have to tell someone who represents your employer that you have a disability, and you don’t have to share every detail, but you need to provide enough information to show that, you do have a disability and that you need an accommodation. And you don’t have to do it in writing, but it is always a good idea to have a paper trail.

Julia Stephanides (18:21):

So it’s, it can be helpful. I would start with just saying, you know, for example, I say like, you have severe anxiety and working in an open office, like where everyone’s working together and they can hear everyone’s phone calls say that that really triggers you. So I would start with just emailing HR or emailing my supervisor and saying hi. Like, you know, I just want to let you know that you know, I have a, a disability and having to work in the open floor plan is really challenging for me, and I’m not, I’m not able to focus as well. I think if I could get a private office or could get some noise canceling headphones I think I’d be able to do a much better job and focus better and be more productive, like looking forward to, you know, talking about options with you. And that should start kind of the, interactive process. Then if they want more details, you know, maybe they’ll want more details about what your disability is. And, and you just have to see, I think most employers, smart employers, will just say, yeah, okay, you know, let’s talk about some options. But, but they may need more details about what, what is going on for you so that they know how to help.

Natasha Tracy (19:31):

Folks, you are tuned in to “Snap Out of It! The Mental Illness in the Workplace Podcast.” We are talking to Julia Stephaindes, a lawyer with extensive experience in employment law. Now, don’t forget, if you have any questions for Julia, please pop them in the comment box and we may just answer them on air.

Natasha Tracy (19:49):

So, we talked about what a disability actually is, and I believe one of the big advantages of falling into the category of having a disability is, as you said, you can ask for a reasonable accommodation, but the term “reasonable accommodation” seems really vague to me. Can you explain to us what a reasonable accommodation actually is?

Julia Stephanides (20:12):

Again, so this may vary state by state, but under the federal law, the ADA a reasonable accommodation is just an adjustment or a modification that’s made to your job or to the workplace itself to enable an employee or a job applicant to successfully perform the basic duties of the position. So, remember I had said that you have to be able to perform your basic job duties if you’re a person with a disability in order to be protected by the law. So if you can’t perform your basic job duties, even with a reasonable accommodation, then your employer can fire you or can refuse to hire you. But you do have the right to say, look, I can’t do my basic job duties now, but if you provide this reasonable accommodation, then I can. And a reasonable accommodation is basically anything that doesn’t cause undue hardship for your employer and undue hardship is defined as something that requires a lot of significant difficulty or expense to implement.

Julia Stephanides (21:11):

So what we’re looking at is, like, I always like to think of it as like just knowing what your needs are and knowing how you best work, right? So if you need a workplace that is quiet or you, like, for me, I, my environment is very important to me. I’m highly sensitive and I’m much more productive in a space that does not have fluorescent lights and that it’s quiet. And I, I just need that. And I you know, I, because I have documented disabilities that’s something where I could say, Hey, I’m going to turn off my, my lights. Can you please order me a floor lamp? And it’s like, like a warm colored floor lamp. And that like really impacts my mood and ability to focus. Having a private office is really good for me. So I, I just think of it as like, you know, if it’s something that is extremely expensive and your employer is a non-profit, right, probably not gonna be considered reasonable. But, you know, courts really do consider it on a case by case basis, and they’ll take into account factors like the cost of the accommodation, the resources of the employer, and the impact the accommodation will have on the facility. So if you, you know, if you can be creative about things that would help you at work the sky is really the limit as long as it’s not too expensive or burdensom.

Natasha Tracy (22:31):

I know someone that had bipolar disorder who was working in a company that was very large, and what he actually asked for was access to the nursing room that we had in the company. Because that room was quiet and small and he could calm down and he could actually sort of reduce his anxiety, reduce what was going on in his brain, if he could be in a room like that for a short period of time. So that was an accommodation. So that was an accommodation that’s perfect for that. I love that was reasonable you know, according to him and the employer. So that’s just an example.

Julia Stephanides (23:10):

And of course that’s reasonable, right? Like, there’s no cost at all. Right. You know, it’s, unless he’s asking for a new nursing room to be built, even then if there’s extra space in the office, why not? But that’s exactly the kind of creative solution where it’s like the employer and, and the employee can really work together because it’s in the employer’s best interests to have you comfortable and supported at work because you are going to do your best work that way. And so I really think there can be alignment here. It does not have to be like me versus my company, and let’s hope you’re working for a company that you know, where people, people aren’t total assholes and where they want to be accommodating folks with different needs. And you know, I’ve, I’ve found most of the places I’ve worked have, have been very open to like, oh, you know, you have this condition and this is one of, you know, something you need.

Julia Stephanides (23:58):

I think it’s just like, there’s like a such an issue, at least in the US probably elsewhere too, especially with women about having needs, right? Like the fact that you have needs is needy or difficult. And everyone has this fear. I mean, I totally, I still have this fear that like, I know my doctors think I am a difficult patient, even though I’m extremely polite and you know, a good listener, but I ask questions, I probe. And when they tell me they don’t know something, like I, I dig deeper and people don’t like that. But it’s, it’s the same with like having needs at work. Everyone wants to be easy. Like, I keep using quotes because I don’t agree with any of these words, but everyone wants to be low maintenance and easy. And I really want to see a cultural shift around, like, there is nothing wrong with having needs.

Julia Stephanides (24:50):

We all have needs like PSA, every single person has needs. Some of us just have needs that are different than what the mainstream provides. And we all need to start getting in touch with our needs, you know, emotionally and physically and, and speaking our needs. And like, you should be going to a workplace where they’re willing to meet your needs. Unless your needs are, like I we said, extremely expensive for the company or extremely unreasonable, but you know, I know not everyone has the privilege of being really particular about where they work, and some of us just need to keep our paychecks going, and I totally understand that. But if you have the privilege of, you know, you don’t like your job has not been kind to you and they seem to be dismissive of your needs, right? Or seem to imply that you’re difficult and you have the privilege of like looking elsewhere, then I would say look elsewhere. Because there are companies that are, that know that this is something they should be doing.

Natasha Tracy (25:44):

I’ve interviewed, this is amazing, named Saskia Lightburn-Ritchiea few weeks ago. And she was talking about how providing things for her employees, and she certainly went above and beyond what the minimum standards would be, but providing things like this for her employees saved her company money because she didn’t have to have people leave and then rehire and then actually hire people again. So when you think about, just for a second, if you’re difficult, if you’re asking for something because you have a need, for example, consider the fact that you’re actually saving the company money by getting your work done more efficiently, more effectively, and they don’t have to hire for your position again. So consider the fact that you’re not actually difficult, you’re not actually a detriment to the company. You’re actually a help to the company. That was her point. And I think that fits really nicely with what you’re saying.

Julia Stephanides (26:38):

I love that. I think that’s such a good point. You know, and, and companies like if you’re working for a big tech company, like I’m in the San Francisco Bay area, a lot of people work for tech companies and it just makes me laugh when like an individual employee is like, I don’t want to be a burden. I’m like, these companies have so much money and you are going through hell, you’re struggling with your health, and you are still showing up and doing your work for this company. Like, the least that they can do is give that back, right? I mean, we live in a society where the balance is really tipped towards corporate power. The companies have the money and the power here. So I’m just so tired of seeing individual people feel like they’re burdening these companies when these companies are the ones that are, they’re sucking everything out of you, right? And giving oftentimes, you know, not a lot back. And you, you need to like know your worth and know that you deserve to be supported by the place that you are giving, you know, 40 plus hours.

Natasha Tracy (27:36):

So folks, this is Snap Out of It! And we are talking to Julia Stephanides, a lawyer who is schooling us on our rights as people with mental illness at work. Pop your questions into the comment box wherever you’re watching, and we may just answer them on air.

Natasha Tracy (27:52):

Here’s a general question for you. So are people with mental illness entitled to medical leave from work? And is any of this time paid time off?

Julia Stephanides (28:07):

Well, like, like everything else with the law, everyone gets so annoyed with lawyers, right? Because this is how we answer questions. It depends, but it genuinely does kind of depend on the circumstances. So, it depends on whether they’re covered by a state law, you know, like I said, the laws in the United States vary state by state or whether they’re covered by the Federal family and Medical Leave Act. Yes. Did you ask also if it has to be paid?

Natasha Tracy (28:34):

Sorry, yes.

Julia Stephanides (28:36):

Ugh, it’s such a depressing question because I mean, this is, no, it’s just like the United States, like are the protections for workers in this country are so bad compared with other like, developed countries? And if you look at like most countries in Europe, for example, like what they offer for maternity leave, right? It’s like, you know, yeah. A year, you know, paid maternity leave. I’m like, what? Like we don’t have paid maternity leave in the United States. And so no, under the federal law, under the FMLA, there is no requirement for medical leave to be paid. It’s absolutely crazy to me, and it’s something we all need to be advocating for, is like paid maternity leave, paid medical leave. But luckily there are ways to fill in the gaps. And I can talk more about like my own experience with medical leave, but basically what happens is that you know, I’ll share more about what entitles you to medical leave, but if it’s determined that you have a serious health condition and can go on medical leave and you take the time off.

Julia Stephanides (29:35):

You know, a lot of us can’t afford to take months off work without pay. So a lot of companies kind of fill in the gaps where they have short-term disability insurance. And so that will usually be like 60 to 70% of of pay. And then also I think like I, it’s, this is changing a lot. I think it’s like seven states, but don’t quote me on that. I know California, New York okay have this, they have short-term disability benefits. And I remember when I went out on medical leave for my migraines, I was like, what am I gonna do? Well, like I am a public interest lawyer, I have $200,000 of loans. Like I am not, you know, people think lawyers are like super rich, and let me tell you, some are, some are not. So I was very worried about what was gonna happen to my finances, but I also was like, I can’t function and I have to take time off.

Julia Stephanides (30:27):

And I didn’t really know a lot about disability benefits, but I, I did apply, my doctor submitted a form for me under the you know, California state disability program and right. This is another example of where it’s very important to have your doctor on board. If you apply for disability, they will not grant it unless you have a doctor certification. Very important to work with a doctor who believes you and believes in the severity of your condition in case it ever comes to this. So luckily, you know, I was working with a doctor who was willing to certify that I had a disability and who agreed that I needed time off work. And yeah, basically I was, I, I didn’t know what to expect and I was, it was like a little bit delayed. Like it was kind of slow when I was like eating up all my savings, being out for three months and close to the end of my time I started getting all these checks from the California EDD, the employment development department.

Julia Stephanides (31:25):

Okay. And like, like $10,000, $12,000, you know, $15,000. And I’m like sobbing, just like, I just like couldn’t believe that the state of California was giving me all this money to support myself and to take care of myself. And like, I just felt so grateful to live here and to live in a place where like we treat workers like human beings and we support them when they’re having a tough time because it was just such a hard time. And to have the financial stress on top of my you know, physical and mental stress, it, I just, I felt, I was like, this is why employment laws and employment benefits are so important. And I was able to, like, what happens with ING a state disability, at least mine was, it wasn’t taxed. So even though it was like 60% of, of my full income, but it wasn’t taxed.

Julia Stephanides (32:20):

So, it was, it was basically exactly my whole income. I used like a couple vacation days to make up the difference, but I took three months off work without taking a financial hit. And that should be the norm, like I said, that should, we should get paid medically, but we don’t in this country. So make sure to look into what your state offers. And it’s also important if you have a health condition to prioritize finding a company that offers some kind of short and long-term disability program in case you live in a state that doesn’t offer disability benefits. The majority of states do not offer them, which is, again, the US is like the wild wild west people here. It’s all about like individualism, taking care of yourself. So there’s really not a big safety net.

Natasha Tracy (33:06):

So, I guess where you live is so critical in the United States that that’s something maybe you should consider when you’re moving, when you’re doing something. I mean, like you said, if it’s the wild, wild west, you want to know what side you’re on for certain issues, if they’re gonna really be pertinent to you. Some people aren’t gonna care about short-term leave, but some people really are gonna care about that. So yeah. Thank you for being so clear that it really depends on where you live, and what your company offers.

Julia Stephanides (33:36):

I mean, that’s another, you know, if you live in Texas, but you know, you work for a progressive company and they have great short-term disability benefits, then you’re find. I’m trying to think back though. Because these answers are so long and I apologize. It’s just because the law is so specific.

Natasha Tracy (34:02):

There’s only so much we can do today, but I promise we may have time to get into those details in a little bit or maybe even a separate episode. But, but I appreciate all the information that you’ve given us so far. Thank you. So, what exactly does an employee do if an employer refuses a right that they know is a legal right?

Julia Stephanides (34:30):

Well, I mean it completely depends on the circumstances and it depends on how much you need that, right? But I think overall you know, you’re gonna want to, you’re going to want to decide what what matters to you, right? So say yourequest a reasonable accommodation and they say, no, that’s unreasonable. So, then you have to decide how important is this to me? How important is this job to me? And how important are my relationships with my supervisors and HR here? And at that point, you’re going to , you know, you’re either deciding between standing up for yourself, digging in your heels and challenging it and possibly, you know, getting a lawyer or putting your head down and accepting the decision and just trying to get the job done. Or the third option is to leave, like, to, find another job and say I don’t wanna work at a place like this. And so you know, even as a lawyer, I always recommend like an escalation of, of approaches. If you do decide option one, I want to stand up for myself, then you know, you do need to know that you’re risking tarnishing your relationships there and hopefully you have one person who can act as a reference there no matter what.

Julia Stephanides (35:50):

Or maybe you don’t need a reference there. But it’s just a practical consideration that it may be awkward and you have to be comfortable with like, oh, this could get, this could get a little awkward. But yeah, you know, you’ll, I always say the first step, if you don’t agree with something the company’s doing and you think it might be unlawful is, you know, you can get a lawyer right away and they can help you out with advocating for yourself. That can be very expensive. I really get that there’s a big gap in like affordable legal services for people who aren’t facing criminal charges. But I would say that, you know, if you want to do it on your own, the the next thing to do if, again, say you’re denied a reasonable accommodation, the next thing we would recommend as lawyers is like sending like what we call a demand email.

Julia Stephanides (36:37):

So, where you kind of lay, you basically are trying to put the company on notice that, right, you know, your rights and you’re, you’re gonna stand up for them and you know the law, right? You know, the law and kind of make them nervous, make them think, oh, this person maybe has a lawyer or could be getting a lawyer and we need to just diffuse the situation and, you know, try to work with them. So you could say in the email, you know, hi HR, I recently received your denial of my request for reasonable accommodation as stated previously, I have X disability. I’m happy to submit documentation from my medical provider that, confirms that I have this disability. And under, this state law or the ADA, (whichever one you’re using) people with disabilities are entitled to reasonable accommodations. What I requested was reasonable because it didn’t, cause, it didn’t cause an undue burden. It wasn’t particularly expensive.

Julia Stephanides (37:36):

Don’t, don’t say that you guys have plenty of money, <laugh>. I mean, you’ll want to say it differently, but I know the resources of this company are, are significant or that could cover this accommodation. And I’m concerned that your denial of my request is a violation of the law. I’m very hopeful that we can reach an amicable resolution on this. Please let me know. If you’d like to discuss or please, please get back to me by the end of the week to discuss. And I think generally when you say, you know, I’m hoping we can resolve this amicably, that tends to be, you know, you’re telling them, look, I’m aware that there are other avenues I can take if, if we don’t resolve this amicably.

Julia Stephanides (38:22):

But you’re not having to specifically say, Hey, you denied my request, I’m gonna sue you. You know, you do not. So it’s kind of this escalation approach. And then if they deny, if they ignore that or they say no to that, then you think about, okay, do I want to get a lawyer? Do I want to think about bringing legal action? Like, and that’s where you, and, of course, that’s extremely expensive, extremely stressful. And we, my goal is to help people not have to do that and to skillfully just navigate these situations so that well,

Natasha Tracy (38:51):

Thank you for laying out what they need. Exactly what should be in an email like that. Because I think that for some people sitting down and trying to write an email like that is just a huge thing and they can’t even think of what to say to an HR department. Right? So thank you so much for outlining that, because I think that’s really going to help people know, okay, these are the bullet points I need to have in my email. And like you said, you do want to approach the situation like a problem that you need to solve together as opposed to a contentious issue. Because the last thing you wanna do is make an enemy of your employer right? If you choose to sue them, that’s a different thing. But while you’re working through things, like you said, while you’re escalating, you try to make friends with your employer, not enemies.

Julia Stephanides (39:41):

I agree. And I do think sending an email like that, putting them on notice, it is the first step in things becoming a bit more hostile. Just because if you, you know, what you should, what I would recommend you do, and again, this is not formal legal advice. This is what I have done in the past for clients. I’m not, I don’t take new clients right now. I work for a labor union. Like none of this is legal advice. This is just my thoughts on what, what I, honestly, what I do in these situations now that I have the legal knowledge that I have is kind of look at the elements of the law. Google, Google the law that applies to you, look at the elements and say, and apply the facts of your case to those elements. And when you reference the law, they see, oh, this person’s informed and they’re taking this seriously. They may even send it to their in-house counsel, you know, and say, what do you, you know, what do you think of this? Should we, and so at that point you are raising things up a little bit more.

Natasha Tracy (40:33):

Thank you so much. I do have a couple of questions that were submitted earlier. So, I would like to pose a couple of questions to you. Jay asks this:I came across an incident recently where someone was experiencing a mental health crisis and they had posted on LinkedIn a message that clearly expressed that he was at risk of suicide. His employer, which was a healthcare provider, fired him for posting this. I do not believe he disclosed his mental illness to that employer. So the question is, in the US, does an employer have any obligation to consider clear signs of mental illness if it was not disclosed, or even if it was?

Julia Stephanides (41:19):

I’m surprised to hear that the company did that. That seems stupid to me. And also, like, I’m sad to hear that, that’s really sad and I’m, I’m sorry. The whole point is that the company needs to have some notice that you have a mental health issue in order, so that they can be held accountable for, you know, if they fire you, right? They could say, oh, well, we fired him because he was a bad employee. We didn’t even know he had a mental health issue. I would say that the posting on LinkedIn was a disclosure that this person had a mental health condition. And so that I would think that that would satisfy the, you know, the need to provide some notice if the employer saw that and the employer fired him because of that. And if there’s some kind of evidence to show that that is why he was fired and that may be hard to show that causal relationship. I would think that that would be problematic in many state laws.

Natasha Tracy (42:17):

So you would think that by posting on LinkedIn something that was very clear and very clearly distressed and suicidal, that is notification to a company? And so the company does bear some responsibility at that point or they don’t?

Julia Stephanides (42:41):

As long as you can prove that the company discriminated against you because you have a disability under the ADA, that’s illegal. And so you don’t have to go to your employer and say, I have depression. And then like there, there’s not a formal requirement that you give Some kind of formal notice. It’s like, did they know or have reason to know that you have a mental illness. So I believe that posting, like saying I’m having a mental breakdown, it puts the company on notice that you have a mental illness. And so if they then fire you because of that, it looks like they fired you because you have a disability.

Natasha Tracy (43:18):

Thank you very much. So, another question came in from Matthew and it says if a person has a problem with slight lateness to work when they’re having a bipolar episode because the meds are making them sleepy, is it possible to have this excused?

Julia Stephanides (43:39):

I would just, what I would do, I mean, yeah, that’s very understandable, is I would use the reasonable accommodations and I, one of the, some of the, I, you know, the things that people with mental health conditions can do are get modified work schedules, work, ask for a part-time work schedules, ask to work remotely. These are things that courts have considered to be reasonable depending on the circumstances and depending on the job. But absolutely, if you need to ask your employer, hey, like sometimes I’ll need to come in late, you know, or I’m starting a new medication this week and I may be late some days. I think that that’s certainly something an employer should consider and that an employer should a allow and accommodate. Now, if it’s something that happens and you didn’t know was going to happen? Like you started the meds and then you showed up late for a week because of them, I would definitely make sure, sure to disclose to someone either in HR or to your supervisor, that the reason you showed up late is that you have a disability and you were starting new medication for that disability. And I think that should protect you from any kind of retaliatory action.

Natasha Tracy (44:50):

You think thatbasically being late, while someone could look at it as you said, as being flaky or a behavioral issue, you can actually sort of look at it like a reasonable accommodation saying, look, you know I need this accommodation where I’m going to be late sometimes because I’m trying to get a handle on a disability and a medical issue. So it’s like a reframing of the same thing.

Julia Stephanides (45:16):

Yes, I think you would need to put more specifics around it. Again, this, it completely depends on the company, it depends on the nature of your work, it depends on the severity of your disability. So none of this is like set in stone. But my initial thoughts when you say that are like, you know, for me I’ve had to request modified work schedules because sometimes I have medical appointments in the morning, so I, I say, can I start work at 10 or 11 one day a week? You know, or something like that. So, I think the best thing you can do is try to find some predictability there. If you know you’re starting a new medication, maybe ask if you can come in at right 11 this week instead of nine or noon, or ask if you can have a few days off. I mean, pre preempt it and say, I’m starting a new medication, maybe I need to take three days off work and use your sick days.

Julia Stephanides (46:01):

I think it’s probably harder to do it going back. You know, you can’t say, oh, I was late all week, but can you reasonably accommodate me because the time has already, you know, it’s already happened. Of course, again, hopefully your managers are just kind people and if you say, I was super late this week because I had a bad reaction to a medication, my hope is that they would be understanding of that as long as it didn’t become a pattern where it happens all the time. But if it is something that will happen regularly you can ask for a reasonable accommodation for it.

Natasha Tracy (46:31):

Thank you so much for giving us all this information. I know that we didn’t get to quite everything today, but there’s a lot to cover and I wanna make sure that this episode is snappy enough that, you know, people will not be too scared of the length of it, but thank you so much for giving us all that information. I do wanna end it there today. I’d like to thank Julia Stephanides for sharing her own experience and hard-won knowledge with us. I know that so many of us havequestions about our rights and it’s really comforting to actually have some knowledgeable information on it. So thank you.

Julia Stephanides (47:11):

I am so happy to be here. So happy to share.

Natasha Tracy (47:15):

I’d like thank the audience for listening. Please join me. For the next couple of weeks when I’ll be talking to Gary Copeland, who is the president of Healthyplace.com. He is a former journalist and a successful entrepreneur. He’s going to be talking to us about what, what it’s like to hire and manage people specifically with mental illnesses as he’s been doing it for over a decade. I’ll also be talking to Cara McNulty, the President of Behavioral Health and Employee Assistant Programs for Aetna. She is passionate about amplifying the voices of people with mental illness, and we’re gonna be talking about how improving people’s mental health at work is an imperative for business success and her own experience with postpartum anxiety. Drop by the podcast website at snapoutofitpodcast.com and join our mailing list for more information. “Snap Out of It!” recordings are available on Apple Podcast and Spotify, and if you do find us there, we would greatly appreciate a review. If you’d like to be a guest on “Snap Out of It!” check out our website and fill in the guest application form that’s at snapoutofitpodcast.com.

Natasha Tracy (48:28):

So what would you like to add?

Julia Stephanides (48:35):

I just wanted to add, that I have a lot of really great free resources on my Instagram at Legally.Holistic. At Legally.Holistic, I include a lot of general health resources. It’s not, it’s where I kind of bring workers’ rights together with health and wellness. But I do have some slides on like disability rights in the workplace, an overview of medical leave since we didn’t get to talk about the specifics of that. Reasonable accommodations, just slides that are basically reminders of, of what your general rights are. So follow along it’s all free right now and I just love to spread the word about this stuff.

Natasha Tracy (49:13):

Thank you so much folks. My name is Natasha Tracy. I hope you have a great week with great mental health.

Julia Stephanides (49:36):

Thank you. Bye.