Electroconvulsive Therapy Primer
In preparation for Steven’s piece, I’ve written this primer.
Electroconvulsive therapy (ECT) is the second most controversial medical procedure. (Abortion is the first.) Certainly when I write about ECT it seems to prove the controversy of this topic. And it doesn’t matter what I say about ECT, even if it’s not pro or con, people insist on expressing very strong viewpoints on the use of ECT. And yes, I have had ECT.
And generally the strong viewpoints are anti-ECT. They are from the ECT-is-torture crowd. A prevalent crowd online, to be sure, but someone needs to actually talk about the facts of ECT.
ECT Saves Lives
I know people don’t want to hear this, but ECT saves lives. ECT brings people out of the deepest, darkest depressions that no medication can touch. ECT saves people who are suicidal. ECT saves people who are determined to kill themselves while in the hospital.
It is critical this be an option, no matter how untenable it may be.
ECT Kills Brain Cells
That being said, electroconvulsive therapy induces a clonic seizure in the brain. You won’t feel it, you’ll be under anesthesia and other medications, but the whole point of treatment is to produce a seizure. And seizures cause brain damage. A friend of mine who’s epileptic will tell you how that goes. He spends an awful lot of time trying to prevent brain-damaging seizures.
ECT can cause memory loss and cognitive deficit. Mind you, there’s not a lot of science to back that up the kind of dramatic stories typically touted online.
ECT Can Offer Hope. ECT Can Cause Problems.
In the end, ECT is a gamble. You are doing something unpredictable to your brain. Bad things could happen. Very bad things, in fact. But nasty treatments for severe, intractable depressions are like that. If depression could be cured with lollipops it wouldn’t be a problem, but to the best of my knowledge, lollipops don’t have a very high success rate.
Modern ECT is Safe and Effective
Which is to say modern ECT is safer and more effective than ever before (safety and efficacy are relative). Every year we learn more about the brain and how to target specific areas for treatment. It is now common to see ultra-brief-pulse unilateral ECT rather than bilateral ECT. This means the current runs through a small portion of your brain comparatively. Still a gamble, no doubt, but we’re getting better.
Anti-Psychiatry and Anti-ECT People Are Vocal
I have no doubt ECT has gone very wrong for some people. I have no doubt it has been terrible. It may very well be the case ECT has caused long-term problems. But this small handful of people are the ones filling up all the space on the internet. One person’s experience, good or bad, cannot be the basis for the opinion of a treatment in general. Chemotherapy and radiation kill people. But people do it because they are facing a horrible disease. Just like those who choose ECT.
People Who Have Received ECT Are Ashamed
People who have had electroconvulsive therapy are scared of being judged. They are scared of all the vocal people mentioned above. They are scared of all the people who think something brutal, inhumane and akin to rape saved their lives. I don’t blame them for being scared. Standing up to loud opponents about such a delicate and fragile subject is tough. People have enough problems.
People Shouldn’t Be Ashamed of ECT
But of course people shouldn’t be afraid of admitting they had ECT. They shouldn’t feel bad about a treatment that did (or didn’t, for that matter) help them.
There are people with positive experiences with ECT even if they aren’t shouting it from the rooftops.
Guest Blogger: Steven Schwartz, the BiPolar Badger
Which brings me to next week’s guest author: Steven Schwartz – the BiPolar Badger. Steve is in the middle of a series of six ECT treatments and he’ll be writing about his experiences thus far. Steve has had ECT in the past, has found it effective, and has chosen to do it again. His piece will be up later this week.
More on the BiPolar Badger:
Steven Schwartz is a former journalist living with BiPolar disorder and Borderline Personality Disorder. Writing about his personal experiences of life with Mental Illness to reduce its stigma, shame and misconceptions. Steven writes in a open, frank, humorous and sometimes brutally honest style as a way of showing the human side of living with Mental Illness.
Pros and cons I realy dont care…. Each has different experiences.ECT’s mechanism of action is not known. I will get ECT after the doctor who tells me I need it gets ECT himslf. Decades from now scientists will look back at ECT the way we look back at was done to people in the 91th century with horror and shock. Why is it called THERAPY?
“In fact, it didn’t take long after ECT was invented in 1938 for autopsy studies revealing ECT-caused brain damage to begin appearing in medical journals. This brain damage includes cerebral hemorrhages (abnormal bleeding), edema (excessive accumulation of fluid), cortical atrophy (shrinkage of the cerebral cortex, or outer layers of the brain), dilated perivascular spaces in the brain, fibrosis (thickening and scarring), gliosis (growth of abnormal tissue), and rarefied and partially destroyed brain tissue. (See Peter R. Breggin, M.D., Electroshock: It’s Brain Disabling Effects for references.) Commenting on the extent of physical brain damage caused by electroconvulsive “therapy”, Karl Pribram, Ph.D., head of Stanford University’s Neuropsychology Laboratory, once said: “I’d rather have a small lobotomy than a series of electroconvulsive shock. … I just know what the brain looks like after a series of shocks, and it’s not very pleasant to look at” (APA Monitor, Sept.-Oct. 1974, pp. 9-10). Dr. Sidney Sament, a neurologist, describes ECT this way: “Electroconvulsive therapy in effect may be defined as a controlled type of brain damage produced by electrical means. No doubt some psychiatric symptoms are eliminated … but this is at the expense of brain damage” (Clinical Psychiatry News, March 1983, p. 4). Although he is a defender of ECT, Duke University psychiatry professor Richard D. Weiner, M.D., Ph.D., has admitted that “the data as a whole must be considered consistent with the occurrence of frontal atrophy following ECT” (Behavioral & Brain Sciences, March 1984, p. 8). By “frontal atrophy” he means atrophy (reduced size) of the frontal lobes of the brain, the frontal lobes being the parts believed to be responsible for higher mental functions. The frontal lobes get most of the electricity in ECT. Dr. Weiner also admits “Breggin’s statement that ECT always produces an acute organic brain syndrome is correct” (ibid., p. 42). Organic brain syndrome is organic brain disease.”
no idea what you are talking about. I am an engineer and have been zapped before by multi-hundred volts. You get very sick and feel awful for days. No way this could make you feel better. Just imagine being stabbed with a knife and having to get a blood transfusion. That is what it feels like. I remember the week it happened the worse. Couldn’t focus and my whole body hurt.
Been told I am a semi-depressing person, and believe me this didnt cheer me up.
Just think of it this way. Imagine if I told you I am going to attach electrodes to your brain and cycle it on and off until you get mild brain damage. How do you feel about that?
This barbaric procedure is just a variation on lobotomy and is intended to make patients more manageable not better. You are punishing a mentally ill person for being crazy by frying their brain in their skull.
Anyway if you think its so safe please come down to the lab at work and I will rig up a few power supplies.
God, how could something this awful still exist in 2015?
Hello Isiah,
Electrocuting yourself is nothing like the procedure and comparing it is a sign of pure ignorance. When I learned of ECT still going on in the 2000s I thought it was barbaric, too, but I was ignorant then as well. I have learned a lot about it since.
– Natasha Tracy
I’ve had ECT. I’m bipolar. I was and have been very very sick. I chose to stop my ECT after about 20 rounds. What led me to make that decision was that I could not remember how old my then 10 year old twin daughter was. I was laying on the couch talking with her when I asked her “how old are you?..12?)….I was so confused. To this day I still get lost in the very very small town I live it. I flat out can not recall some major moments in my life. My cognitive function is slow…which I’m a RN so I do not have any hopes of returning to my profession. I make sticky notes to remind me of other sticky notes. During my ECT I also became very terrified on anesthesia…so now if I do need operative help it’s very difficult. I did see an improvement initially with my treatments and I was amazed but after those things I had to stop. Could not risk losing any further memory of what makes up my life. I believe it can be very necessary and beneficial for some. Imo my Dr. Changed my meds dramatically and haphazardly which led to a lot of instability. I’m not sure if that was intentional because he did profit Alot from my insurance. As he owned the machine and provided the treatment. I was never once hospitalized during the entire time he was my Dr so looking back I’m not sure I was ill enough to require that invasive of a treatment. When I quit ECT he was infuriating with me and even quit me as my Dr. It took me 6 weeks to get into a new Dr which was hell. I have been with my new Dr every since and I have been treated with the same medication that she started from the beginning and I have experienced the most stability I have ever had since my diagnosis. So for me it is a big regret. But also suffering from bipolar I realize sometimes hard choices have to be made.
Lots of infighting here about forced ECT and Pros and Cons- very little about the very real possibility of devastating memory loss. When one is spiraling downward, medications that used to work stopped working- previous short round of ECT <6 treatment snapped me out of it. What would you do? I was reassured the memory loss was temporary- I did not experience a "bounce back" episode that I had previous (6yrs prior)/ Yet again, I held on to what I believed my only lifeline. I continued with maintenance ECT until I reached #91. My husband declared no benefit could outweigh the cost I had suffered. Again, I was assured my memory loss would be limited to months prior to my treatment and during the treatment time. Not only has this not been the case, I had lost big chunks of time, with no tangible connection to anything. I cannot remember my husband proposing. I cannot remember a presentation I gave to the County Council. Subsequent to this, I had to quit my job, as the damage affected my cognitive abilities as well. I process information- I just cannot always retrieve it. I do not have any recollection of a place I visited yesterday. I have been in weekly therapy for the last 20 years- on medication that controls my depression except during two major remissions I experienced (as you know, common for individuals with treatment resistant depression). I am unable to work because of the damage incurred by ECT, not my depression. I believe the ECT companies owe me my lifetime of lost income as an intelligent post graduate woman.
Great post and WOW some pretty heated debate which is nothing unusual as soon as ECT is mentioned which I simply do not get. People with a mental health issue have a range of treatment options ranging from laying on a couch and trying to talk through and understand the issues, to medication , to hospitalisation and then ECT. Ok, I agree this is overly simplified but it just to paint a picture. My wife is diagnosed with schizoaffective disorder and each episode was getting stronger and taking longer and longer to get under control.
12 years ago she had been in hospital for 12 weeks in a complete psychotic state. She was in the secure ward and being given large doses of tranquillisers and anti psychotic meds. None of this was having the slightest impact on her illness.
At this point her treating doctor recommended ECT. At first I was like “no way is someone doing that shit to my wife! I saw one flew over the cuckoos nest!”
With the system here in Australia my wife was being treated under an involuntary treatment order as she was unable to make informed, educated decisions about her care due to her illness. I was her designated “Allied person” meaning I had the ability to decide on treatment options for her.
This weighed very very heavily on me. What to do? I had the doctors telling me that very soon they would have to send my wife to a live in facility because she was not responding to treatment and hospital is for acute and short term admissions only. So i researched ECT. I asked to speak to other people in the local mental health community about their experiences. In general the feedback was good. Memory loss of varying degrees but compared to living in a mental health secure ward I decided to give it a try. 1 hour after the first treatment my wife is sitting up and we are having a “normal” conversation, the first one in over 12 weeks. SInce then my wife has further episodes with her schizoaffective and ECT is now her first choice for immediate treatment. It works hard and fast and stops the onset in its tracks.
My wife has now had nearly 100 treatments and she functions fantastically as a mother, a wife, the domestic engineer of our home, my best friend and soul mate.
So all you anti ECT people lets see you find fault with this! My wife is not less human, she is not dumber, she is not traumatised, she is not anything except appreciative that her doctor cared enough to suggest ECT.
Of course in a perfect world she would prefer not to have ECT, she would also prefer not to have schizoaffective disorder but that is the hand she has been dealt and she has to manage it the best way she can.
I am not going to argue the pros and cons of ECT. I believe that everyone has the right to choose for themselves as long as they are given the appropriate information. I was hospitalized (I originally initiated because I knew I was in trouble) and my doctor tried to force me to have ECT. I had to get a lawyer (which was provided to me free of charge). My depression was the second episode that I had. I had only been hospitalized for about 3 weeks before they discussed this “option”. I use that term loosly because he wasn’t giving me a choice. I had to meet with the lawyer several times, which of course postponed the ECT treatments. in the end, I was able to gradually get better. I wouldn’t say I was completely out of my depression, but I was much better. The doctor eventually dropped the court case (mostly because there was no way he would win at that point). I am a highly intelligent individual. I was well aware of the pros and cons of ECT. I didn’t want it for myself. I think that I should have had that right without having to fight for it. I spent my time in the hospital not only depressed, but terrified. I ended up hiding a lot of my feelings because I felt it was no longer a “safe” place.If I am currently on medication and receive therapy. However, if I ever sufferred another episode, I think I would have a really hard time asking for help. Honestly, after my last experience, I’m pretty sure I wouldn’t. I think in the long run, the doctors did me a dis-service. I whole heartedly agree that if you want ECT and are informed, you should have that right. HOWEVER, nobody should ever be forced to have such a treatment against their will.
i was forced into E C T my ex believed i was insane turns out obviously i am not , but i now take seizures regularly , completely out of control , and unconcious , iam finally on anti-convulsants .The E C T therapy went badly wrong i took several uncontolled seizures continous imediatly after , i have brain damage now , loss of memory , forgetfulness , severe migraines asa result .I am a 47 yr old mam to two girls ,who are 20 and 22 yrs , both of whom are disabled . my ex no longer with us , i am a full time carer to my youngest who is severley autistic .hospital have never given me the truth .i blame my ex -he married me knowing i had seizures , he happily called them panic attacks !!! if i could ever find ,who or what was resonsible i would sue them , it has completely altered my life !! i have multiple illness , and a complex medication list .
k.a bennet I am truly sorry to hear of you horrible experience with this wonderful procedure. The ECT Treatments are for individuals that have gotten to the point in their lives where nothing else works at all… and as well it MUST BE VALENTARY…. TOTALLY…. for you to have been forced into it .. it becomes a fight within the brain along with a fear factor … I have done tons a research on the ECT procedure’s only to hear good things and have had night and day results with them .. only unless forced … this is the only time I have ever heard negative things about them.. or if the person is not on for them … (these procedure’s are a very serious procedure… and if you ended up with all these conditions … I would be extremely talking to the doctor and filing charges .. unless you yourself signed forms… your husband can not force you nor can any doctor force you to have this done unless you have been deemed unable to make proper decision’s on your own… I would certainly be talking to an attorney about it if nothing else to find out all your rights … because you possibly have a case against the doctor… what you have described is totally illegal these days. and I would not allow them to get away with it AT ALL … NOT MATTER WHAT .. YOU OR ANYONE ELSE DESERVES SUCH TREATMENT.. IF YOU NEED ASSISTANT I WOULD NOT MIND HELPING YOU…. I do know some things about the ECTs and the law … and what I do not know I know how to find it out… … such abuse and malpractice should not go un-just… …we do care.. sincerely … Annette Watson
Modern ECT machines are several times more powerful than those of the earlier era.
Electronic Bombardment of the brain is really the cause of the ECT effects. The seizure
produced is just a side effect. Most alleged experts on ECT hark that the ECT machines of
the modern era emits lower currents. This is probably a calculated misleading statement, its
purpose is to recruit more customers through deceit. There may be some doctors who give
talk shows that really believe that modern ect machines emit less current. Since it is well know
now that ECT effects are from the electronic bombardment and lobotomize the brain. The
higher the current that us suprathreshold, the more effective the lobotomy. Concentrating on the right side of the brain causes a lot more damage. But it is easier to get away with it. The
damage on the right side of the brain controls emotive feelings, abstract thinking, executive functioning, sexuality, three dimensional visualization, sense of direction, and self awareness of memory loss. So high suprathreshold electronic bombardment of the right side of the brain is more damaging to ECT survivors, it makes them less human. The electron pulse use now may be ultra brief, but each brief pulse emitts a lot more electrons. What a perfect crime. Such a good business to be in the ECT business. You make money, then you get adoration and respect. Meanwhile you are hurting people making them less human.
You sir are a disgrace! Talking about lobotomies and ECT making people less human.
My wife has had nearly 100 ECT treatments over the last 12 years. I assure you she is very much human and a high functioning one at that. Your comments are misinformed, biased and lack empathy and compassion. What is your real agenda – it is not helping people get well and feel good about themselves.
You make me sick! It is because of people like you that ECT has a bad name. Our experience with ECT is nothing but positive and my wife goes straight for it every time her schizoaffective illness starts to bother her.
I can not believe someone would have the nerve to actually write that someone who has ECT is less human. I am even more surprised that the admin of this site would allow such inflamatory, misinformed statements
Actually ECT got a “bad name” because of the people who came forward whose lives it destroyed. People like Marilyn Rice, Linda Andre, Peggy Salters, Jonathan Kott, Liz Spikol, and on and on. The people who HAD it who said themselves they felt diminished, lesser, traumatized, brain damaged, dumbed down, without emotions, and destroyed. Several compared it to a lobotomy.
Check the ECT survivor website and the 1st person stories about what this bogus “medical@ “procedure” did for them.
Your wife has apparently been lucky, probably given minimal numbers (1-6) of well spaced low dose unilateral shock. So she survived her brain damage. Others don’t.
I can speak with authority on behalf of myself. I had it. I feel less human. I have permanent amnesia and have lost 20-30 IQ points.
Shock, primitive,?and destructive, should be banned.
ECT is a human rights violation. The fact that it may short term @benefit” 1 person out of 10 does not make up for it destroying the lives of about 4 out of 10. Sick of the APA and Industry lies and cover ups of a sick service raking in $5 billion a year.
Max Fink famous AeCT doctor states RCT is “craniocerebral trauma”, it “works” by injuring the brain. Sackheim’s study in 2007 proves it causes ongoing memory and cognitive dysfunction.
As Bentall and Reid concluded after reviewing all the literature on ECT: ” it’s use CANNOT be scientifically justified.” ( because of brain injury and risk of death)..
I do not want anyone else to have their life destroyed by ECT.
I am doing a project for my nursing class at Clemson on electroconvulsive therapy, and I was wondering if I could use your picture of the brain synapsis?
Hi Grace,
That’s actually not my image, it’s a royalty-free image from MS Office. If you have access to Office it’s completely legal for you to use, to the best of my knowledge.
:)
– Natasha Tracy
After 4 years of major depression with an equal dose of major anxiety, I was hospitalized because I was so suicidal. Not that I wanted to die, but the quality of my life was just terrible. The only good part of my day was falling asleep and getting a break from the depression and anxiety. Once in the hospital a Russian psychiatrist told me to have ect treatments, 16 to be specific – 16 within 2 months hospitalization. He gave me an outrageous success rate, 80% of something like that. I had no objections. Like suicide, I didn’t want the ECT, but what did I have to lose? I had already concluded that medications and a very supportive psychiatrist held no relief for me. In sum, life was hell with no relief in sight. So I had the 16 ECT treatments. After discharge from the hospital, the first thing I did was try to hang myself. I next found myself on the floor, with a sprained ankle. I don’t know how long I swung, but the rope – which was seemingly strong – has broken, thus sparing my life. I was no better and thought only of more certain methods of killing myself. It was a simple choice. My life, my choice. However my psychiatrist threw Tegretol into my cocktail of medications and within 3 days the depression was gone. I have remained free of that major depression for 8 years now. I do regret the ECT treatments. My memory is horrible. Although I am well-educated (masters) I cannot remember how to spell many common words. It could be age-related memory loss, so there’s that. But I suspect ECT has been a contributing factor. I certainly wasn’t aware of any such memory loss before the treatments, but in my state I wasn’t too observant. Although the ECT treatments were obviously ineffective, my psychiatrist insists they were. He is biased. It is his preconception that they are helpful, but that is my observation and conclusion. He “believes” in ECT and I am always suspect of any beliefs. My evidence, for me alone, suggests otherwise.
Because of the medication change, I am living a satisfying life with only occasional and short-lived depressive or anxious experiences. Nothing to worry about.
This is just my story. Take it as you will.
Hi Glenn,
First, let me say I’m sorry you have had a treatment you regretted. I have had them too, but unfortunately, you never know how a treatment is going to go until you try it. If we knew it wasn’t going to work out, of course we wouldn’t do it.
Just for your information, the doctor was actually correct when he said it was more than 80% effective in cases of depression – that is the number shown in literature and the generally accepted number. That being said, of course it’s always inappropriate to give ECT without warning the patient of all the possible side effects. What year did you get it? The consent regulations have gotten much better in recent years and consent is very complex now.
Also, I feel that it’s inappropriate to continue ECT to 16 sessions when it’s not working after say, 8 or 9. But obviously your doctor didn’t agree with that.
Thank-you for sharing your story. It’s important that people hear different stories to get a well-rounded view.
– Natasha Tracy
To clarify some things: I did not come to this blog out of the blue—I was sought out by Ms. Tracy and the “guest blogger” who was getting ECT. Not happy with the fact that I allowed myself to be a part of this site at all. I know that had I stumbled across this site in my wandering the internet, I would not have left a comment, nor would I have returned. In fact while engaged with the comment thread in March, I had no desire to return to this site, which is why I posted my replies by e-mail… I am disappointed that I participated in the exchange at all. Not my best behavior—but also not my worst.
I know I am kind of late to the party in regards to this post, but I want to thank you for providing the previous information. I’m part of the population that has no information about ECT, only the fear-mongering that exists. Every time I hear of ECT, I’m reminded of a barbaric procedure that shocks and damages patients. But as you pointed out, there is a sizable amount of patients who have gone through successful ECT programs. I wish there was more information about ECT, instead the one sided fear campaign.
At the moment I don’t see myself needing ECT, however, if it works for people who have severe depression I don’t see why there is so much negative surrounding it. I compare it too me taking a very high dose of Seroquel (900+ mg), I have a huge potential for horrible side effects but the medication is working. I’m trading a few years of my life for mental stability, I don’t see how that is any different than a patient going through ECT. In fact, most medications for Bipolar disorder and Schizophrenia have horrible side effects, but the medications are needed…
Again I want to thank you for providing a different side to the ECT debate,
Dave.
Hi David,
Hey, you’re welcome to the party any time. Particularly considering how difficult a time you’re having right now, I’m pleased to see you popping by at all.
You’re welcome for the information. Actually, this topic has become a peccadillo of mine. People are so nutty about it that even though I hated it, and it didn’t work for me, I’m insistent on bringing some real light onto the issue.
Specifically, I’m writing an ebook on it. I’m about 60 pages in. It’ll include my writings from during the ECT treatment as well as all the facts a person would need to know before deciding to get ECT. I wouldn’t call it a feel good romp, but I would call it useful. And not fear-based in the least.
The picture you’re reminded of regarding ECT is common. I don’t blame you for thinking that. I thought it too. It’s really hard not to. It’s an unbelievably dramatic scene that we’ve all seen on TV and in the movies.
“…if it works for people who have severe depression I don’t see why there is so much negative surrounding it. I compare it too me taking a very high dose of Seroquel (900+ mg), I have a huge potential for horrible side effects but the medication is working.”
I agree totally. The last thing people who get ECT (or take Seroqel) need is to be condemned for getting treatment. It irks me beyond belief.
“Again I want to thank you for providing a different side to the ECT debate”
Absolutely.
Stop by any time. My thoughts are with you.
– Natasha Tracy
I understand there are a lot of feelings around these issues. Perhaps you would like to hear what the BiPolar Badger actually has to say: https://natashatracy.com/treatment/ect/myths-realities-journey-ect-bipolar-badger/
– Natasha
Again, Becky can’t seem to post for herself.
Becky says:
“What don’t you understand about my statement, “Get a clue, NONE of you have anything of interest or import to share IMO?” Please fight your compulsion to respond–get a life and leave me out of it. Thank you.
Becky”
Dear Becky _to_whom_I_neither_responded_nor_addressed_
Feel free to leave at any time. Really. We don’t mind.
– Natasha
Dear Ms. Murphy,
Wow!
I’m truly glad you’ve achieved a reasonable degree of wellness for yourself as it matters not overwhelmingly me to how but that the individual has achieved and is in a state of relative wellness.
Your recent posting is telling to me although, I simply shall not contribute and go there with you.
Mr. David Oaks, as one of the founders of Mind Freedom and speaking on behalf of the organization, as I recall a number of years ago, had printed information and/or made public statements on behalf of the organization calling for the banning of ECT. I didn’t ask you to speak for Mr. Oaks or for that matter anyone. Since your photo is pasted on the front page of their website I’ll presume you’re much in alliance with their thoughts and mission. Once again I’ll ask of you whether David Oaks/Mind Freedom have clarified their position regarding the banning of ECT and not abrogating the rights of others to seek their treatment of choice?
“I would like to ask, if you believe not all people are created equal, how does this effect your marital relationship? Or, do you make an exception, and despite your beliefs, you and your wife are exactly equal?” — Becky Murphy
It does not affect our marital relationship. We accept the fact my spouse is a woman and I’m a man and in many areas she’s superior to me hence from the get-go we were not born equal. I also accept the research that in many ways women are superior to men obviously making us not equal. To further answer your question my spouse and I also maintain a 50/50 relationship. I give/she takes (joke). We’re both satisfied with our arrangements and relationships which have worked well for us for almost five decades. I’ll also add proudly that if not for my diligence and persistent efforts due to the severity of her illness she would be dead long ago. My reward for those efforts and caring is her statement to me, “I’m happy to be alive.”
Once again, I do not consider myself superior to anyone. Maybe the question to be pondered is do you feel easily intimated and/or inferior to others?
“Get a clue, NONE of you have anything of interest or import to share IMO.” — Becky Murphy
Lastly, along with your advocacy for no coercion and/or forced treatment with ECT without informed consent comes the question of who forced you to participate here based upon your most recent posting?
Warmly,
Herb
vnsdepression@gmail.com
http://www.vnstherapy-herb.blogspot.com/
I’ve been staying out of this because of the, let’s just say, strong feelings, involved. But I wanted to pull this out:
Herb:
“I’ll also add proudly that if not for my diligence and persistent efforts due to the severity of her illness she would be dead long ago. My reward for those efforts and caring is her statement to me, “I’m happy to be alive.””
You and I haven’t always agreed on everything ;) but I think it’s important to say thanks. We all need people who stand with us. It’s a testament to the strength and love of both you and your wife. The fact that she says that to you is a gift for everyone.
– Natasha
Dear Ms. Murphy,
I am not offended by what you’ve had to offer up. On the other hand I’m not complacent to accept some of your statements and your wording in presenting your position.
As to your position on the matter of coerced and/or forced ECT I think I clearly stated I am in agreement with you. Is being in agreement with you also to be construed by you as my being offended?
Maybe the difficulty here is your seeming need to go off on divergent thoughts.
As for my years of life it affords me the vantage point of sharing those years of experiences, research and knowledge and where appropriate interjecting my opinions and thoughts.
With that thought in mind, in my opinion and possibly contrary to your belief systems, I do not believe that we are all born equal and that in fact there are individuals who are far superior to me in various avenues. That is not only a “fundamental truth”; but fact.
While I do not think of myself as superior to anyone I do believe in certain areas those years of experiences, research and knowledge and most importantly persistence has afforded my spouse the opportunity to achieve an almost continuously depression free state for more than a decade and a reasonable quality of life for the two us. A point I would like to cite and something not to be taken lightly especially when having any understanding and knowledge of the nature of MDD.
But rather than wasting all our time and spending your valuable time assigning personal attributes of me or anyone, I personally would think more highly of your knowledge and abilities if you’d care to take the time to respond to the question I had asked of you.
“As I object to the above statement so too did I object in my conversation several years ago with David Oaks. And at that time he too made no distinction nor did his literature other than “ECT should be banned.” That is unless you can cite for me more recent literature to the contrary?” — Herb
When I confronted Ms. Juli Lawrence regarding a similar statement she clarified her position to my personal satisfaction.
Let’s consider staying on topic as I believe Natasha’s introduction and Mr. Schwartz’ presentation relate to ECT as a therapy and not coercion and forcible use although you chose to bring up that particular issue.
Natasha, you also reminded me of an ECT forum discussion I participated in many years ago where one of the long-time participants admonished me with the fact that “Don’t I know that electricity kills?” As difficult as it was to respond to such a mind-set I tried to also explain that electricity lights our homes, cooks our food, runs our computers and cars and in some instances maintains the heartbeat of cardiac patients etc., etc. Needless to say the discussion similarly turned to personal attributions.
I guess such is the life of message forums in particular when discussing controversial subject matter.
Warmly,
Herb
vnsdepression@gmail.com
http://www.vnstherapy-herb.blogspot.com/
Editor’s Note: BECKY – stop sending emails please and reply to the posts and comments like everyone else.
Becky says:
“Herb,
You are asking me to clarify another person’s, i.e. David Oaks’ personal opinion. I am unable to do that for obvious reasons…I can only clarify my own. I make it a habit to not speak for other’s without permission.
I am happy for your wife (and you as well) for her decade of improved mood status.
I myself have experienced debilitating depression long term in my life and have I am grateful to have through much hard work, therapy, lifestyle changes and drugs in the beginning, not had the paralyzing nonfunctional depression I had for over 2 decades. I have not had to take drugs on a daily basis for over 6 years; except for a couple days a couple times a year.
It takes work to stay emotionally, physically and spiritually fit. I am grateful I had people who were willing to help me learn some real tools for recovery. Those who have shared share their personal experiences with candor in the hopes of helping others, gave me hope and showed me the way.
BTW, Herb, I would have never come to this blog had I not saw on the stats for my own blog the fact Ms. Tracy visited, as she has her own ISP. Never heard of her and would have not come here otherwise. She then gave a link to Steven who later accuses me of “trolling” other peoples blogs. The very thing Steven himself does on mine for over 12 hours—is he a weirdo? Steven did not write this post btw. Apparently, his shocking tale is scheduled for later…
You tell me, “I do not believe that we are all born equal and that in fact there are individuals who are far superior to me…” Herb, is this why you are taking the condescending tone with me? You believe I am inferior to you? I would like to ask, if you believe not all people are created equal, how does this effect your marital relationship? Or, do you make an exception, and despite your beliefs, you and your wife are exactly equal?
I do not care where you went to school, or your experience–It is obvious you make assumptions about me based on your own biases and nothing else. I do care however how you speak to me; and as it is not acceptable to take out your frustrations about perceived or real wrongs you feel other’s have done to you on me. Anger and resentment are corrosive and bad for the body, mind and spirit. I tend to make up my own mind about a person based on my own experience with them, not preconceived notions. I know that making assumptions about others with NO actual knowledge or first hand dealing with them is the breeding ground of bigotry. It is EXACTLY the attitude that those with mental illness deal with every day, I know this from personal experience as well.
As to your recommendation of staying on topic—I have no interest in a the victim status of this writer, who seems to believe her brain has been attacked by a disease—not credible at all. I do not care to be referred to as a “nutjob” or ignorantly assumed to have an affinity for Scientology–by people who then try to pretend they have something up on me. It is truly disrespectful and well, NOT acceptable. As I said, this is not a forum I would have visited on my own. Award or no, I am not impressed with the lack of critical thinking evidenced in the writing or this writer’s prejudicial attitude. It is obvious this is not a forum for relevant information. I do read blogs that do not have the same views as my own—this would not be one I would choose due to the attitude that permeates the two examples I did subject myself to. I appreciate reasoned and respectful debate, but the reality is, my intro to this “Award Winning Writer” was due to her coming to MY site, out of curiosity, I tracked her down. Both her and the shock journalist who wants to be the poster boy for ECT and claim it is saving his life sought me out. WTF any one wants to do with their brain is their business—
Steve, I have made my position plain. And DO NOT wish to stop anyone who thinks a little brain damage will help. Better you than me! BTW, after more than twelve hours on my site, it is obvious to me who is trolling….You actually have the balls to accuse me of trolling blogs like I sought your dumb ass out–get a life! I have enough idiots in mine–thanks for thinking I was at all interested in yours. NOT!
Get a clue, NONE of you have anything of interest or import to share IMO.
Becky”
Dear Ms. Murphy,
Be certain of one fact, I’m grounded in reality; almost seven decades worth. I stand somewhat corrected as your initial quote didn’t quite delineate for me what appeared to be your statement and that which you were quoting nor did you indicate any link so that I could read for myself and attempt to validate any of your quotations.
“ECT should be banned.” — International Journal of Risk and Safety in Medicine
Be that as it may, I have been in a support and health care advocacy role approaching five decades and contrary to your later pronouncement Mind Freedom in fact, like the International Journal of Risk and Safety in Medicine that you quoted, makes no distinction as to coerced or forced treatment.
As I object to the above statement so too did I object in my conversation several years ago with David Oaks. And at that time he too made no distinction nor did his literature other than “ECT should be banned.” That is unless you can cite for me more recent literature to the contrary?
Unlike those who have a need for alarmism and fear mongering I prefer education and educating. Yes, you are correct that “ECT is also potentially DEADLY?” Then again so too is aspirin and many other medications and treatments and unlike you I don’t go bandying about such statements.
I don’t downplay but share information as to the potential serious side-effects of any treatment but let us carefully note the use of the word potential and the fact that each individual is unique and so too their response(s) to any therapy as well as the study literature giving some indication of the percentages of side-effects.
I don’t downplay but share information as to the potential serious side-effects of ECT as well as the potential impairment to memory and/or cognition. I try to educate and share alternative ideas to consider for treatment but when all else fails what other alternatives do you have to offer up?
There is no doubt individuals have encountered detrimental side-effects from ECT but then again those suffering the ravages of MDD who are considering this treatment alternative are already being damaged by the very illness they are trying to treat. What we seldom hear from are those who have obtained benefit from this particular therapy for whatever reason as I look forward to Mr. Steven Schwartz’ presentation, good or bad.
I’ll also respectfully take issue with Natasha’s statement “ECT is deadly? Correct” especially since she’s a superb writer. I personally find statements of this kind to be inflammatory and fear mongering. The fact is it is not “deadly” but can potentially cause death. From a statistical point of view the procedure is far less risky than most other procedures involving anesthesia. In fact here in the State of Florida ECT is probably far less risky than the cosmetic surgeries which were exposed several years back in a local newspaper publication.
The point is Becky if you want to advocate for banning coerced and/or forced ECT (without adjudication/human rights issue) I’m with you and simply state it outright but please don’t throw in the other hogwash to try to justify your position, because for me, you can’t cut the mustard until you offer up better alternative treatment option(s) as well as definitive diagnostics measurements evidencing neurological damage.
Warmly,
Herb
vnsdepression@gmail.com
http://www.vnstherapy-herb.blogspot.com/
Hi Herb,
“I’ll also respectfully take issue with Natasha’s statement “ECT is deadly? Correct” especially since she’s a superb writer. I personally find statements of this kind to be inflammatory and fear mongering. The fact is it is not “deadly” but can potentially cause death. ”
Yes, it’s true. But that’s why I mentioned the crossing the street and childbirth examples. Because I agree, it’s fear mongering. As soon as people start telling people to not have children because it can possibly cause death, or to always stay inside in a lightning storm, I feel pretty OK about it.
(That was one of the other examples in that study I linked to. More people die from lightning strikes each year than from ECT.)
Being alive is deadly. Ever know anyone not to die? ;)
– Natasha
Becky appears to have emailed me a comment directed at you.
Becky Murphy wrote:
“I meant you no offense. It is obvious you have decided to be offended nonetheless…If I believed you actually were interested I would send it to you. No one of us is superior Sir—After almost 70 years of life and your “years as an advocate” I would think you would know this fundamental truth.”
I have never had it and have only known one person who did have it. When I was 16 and hospitalized for suicide and depression, my roommate was having ECT. She didn’t talk about it at least not to me or in group, but I do know that after they started it she definitely became calmer and stopped trying to hurt herself. That is really my only experience with it.
I think it’s strange how we live in a world that talks about “freedom”, but what they really mean is “you’re free as long as you do as I say/want/like/agree”.
I know if drinking green pumpkin snot was the only thing that made me able to function “normally” I would learn to like green pumpkin snot. I think most people would do the same too. There is always a risk and a side effect regardless of the medicine. It’s a shame that people could be denied a life saving treatment just because someone somewhere didn’t think it was “PC acceptable”.
Hi Maasiyat,
“I think it’s strange how we live in a world that talks about “freedom”, but what they really mean is “you’re free as long as you do as I say/want/like/agree”.”
It’s true. Happens all over society in a whole lot of ways. Some might suggest that taking medication is an example of that. I wouldn’t agree, personally, but that’s me.
“I know if drinking green pumpkin snot was the only thing that made me able to function “normally” I would learn to like green pumpkin snot. I think most people would do the same too.”
Um, not the most appealing metaphor I’ve ever read, but true. Most, if not all, of us do things we don’t want, to get better. I, for example, miss going out late with my friends. But alas, I can’t because of the disorder. (Wait, maybe that pumpkin thing is sounding better…)
“There is always a risk and a side effect regardless of the medicine. It’s a shame that people could be denied a life saving treatment just because someone somewhere didn’t think it was “PC acceptable”.”
I would second that statement with great applause. There is a risk-vs-reward ratio on absolutely everything we do and ECT is life-saving. It’s fine if people don’t find the risk acceptable, but you’re right, PC is such a bad reason for/against anything. (And yes, there are reasons outside of PC, obviously, but so much boils down to politics if you really look at it.)
[Interesting side note. I was talking to my doctor today and she said if she ever needed serious depression treatment she would get ECT. Because of its high success rate and really fast effect, she thinks it’s more than worth it. That’s theoretical, of course, as she’s not facing the choice, but still telling I think.]
– Natasha
Yup, nothing brings out the big guns like discussing ECT and worse yet is when an individual might offer up something favorable to state about the treatment option.
I should know as some 10 years ago I shared my observations, knowledge and experiences as a support person to my spouse. She has utilized ECT as an expeditious and beneficial treatment when necessary. I shared this information on a particular ECT message forum and was I ever attacked for my differing thoughts.
“ECT should be banned.” — Becky Murphy
What gives you or any of the Mind Freedom folks the right to abrogate my spouse’s choice for a medical treatment that has worked for her?
Maybe you would consider reading the research of Drs. Ronald Duman neuroscientist and professor of psychiatry and pharmacology at Yale University and Yvette Sheline associate professor of psychiatry and radiology at Washington University in St. Louis and their findings relating to ECT and neurogenesis. As a little hint:
“Dr. Duman then comments on his work on the cellular level. Not long ago it was discovered that, contrary to what had been believed, new neurons are actually born in the brain, specifically in the hippocampus. This process is called neurogenesis. Stress blocks the process of neurogenesis, so one theory as to why the hippocampus atrophies in depression is that no new cells are being born (other theories include that the cells are shrinking or being killed directly). Dr. Duman has shown that both antidepressants and ECT – electro convulsive therapy — actually increase the rate of adult neurogenesis. Dr. Sheline says that in her studies, only untreated days of depression contributed to the hippocampal volume loss, so it does seem that, for whatever reason, antidepressant medication does prevent atrophy of the hippocampus.”
http://www.lcmedia.com/mind424.htm
“This may occur spontaneously (due to endogenous changes) or in response to antidepressant therapies such as administration of SSRIs or ECT which augment neurogenesis by increasing synaptic levels of serotonin and other neurotransmitters. In the remainder of this section we provide an overview of the evidence that forms this hypothesis.”
http://www.nature.com/mp/journal/v5/n3/full/4000712a.html
My spouse has had a number of ECT through four decades and numerous MRI and CAT scans and also contrary to your statements relating to brain damage her neurologist’s statement is that “her brain exhibits no defects and is normal for someone her age.”
Ms. Murphy, I certainly can refute and challenge much of what you have to state but that is not my purpose for speaking here. On the other hand I am also in agreement with some of what you have offered up in terms of patient education, informed consent and I too am strongly against any coerced or forced treatment (without adjudication).
As for your references to Dr. Peter Breggin and worse yet, Gary Null tsk, tsk.
By the way and unless you happened not to know, Vladimir Horowitz amongst others went on and continued their careers. So please don’t abrogate my spouse’s or my rights to choose our treatment options that is and unless you can offer up a better suggestion.
Warmly,
Herb
vnsdepression@gmail.com
http://www.vnstherapy-herb.blogspot.com/
“What gives you or any of the Mind Freedom folks the right to abrogate my spouse’s choice for a medical treatment that has worked for her?”
“So please don’t abrogate my spouse’s or my rights to choose our treatment options that is and unless you can offer up a better suggestion.”
Absolutely not anything close to reality Herb! Neither I personally, nor MindFreedom International claims this right, so please do not make inflammatory and sensational statements which have NO basis in REALITY. The issue for myself as well MindFreedom is FORCED treatment. There are those who are totally anti drugs and ECT–for good reason due to being harmed, many of them have permanent damage due to having unwanted ineffective treatment FORCED upon them. It is NOT a MindFreedom position or policy to ban any particular type of treatment.
Respectfully,
Becky Murphy
Hi Herb,
Nicely done. I’m aware of the neurogenesis research myself and find it quite interesting.
Nice to see you stop by.
– Natasha
What a load of “opinion.” You state, “One person’s experience, good or bad, cannot be the basis for the opinion of a treatment in general.” Your entire column is just opinion—You actually state that it is safer than before–where is the proof of this stated opinion?
The following is from the International Journal of Risk and Safety in Medicine
Abstract. Electroconvulsive treatment (ECT) is increasingly used in North America and there are attempts to promote its further
use world-wide. However, most controlled studies of efficacy in depression indicate that the treatment is no better than placebo with no positive effect on the rate of suicide.
ECT is closed-head electrical injury, typically producing a delirium with global mental dysfunction (an acute organic brain syndrome). Significant irreversible effects from ECT are demonstrated by many studies, including: (1) Inventories of autobiographic and current events memories before and after ECT; (2) Retrospective subjective observations on memory; (3) Autopsy studies of animals and some of humans. ECT causes severe and irreversible brain neuropathology, including cell death. It can wipe out vast amounts of retrograde memory while producing permanent cognitive dysfunction.
Contemporary ECT is more dangerous since the current doses are larger than those employed in earlier clinical and research studies. Elderly women, an especially vulnerable group, are becoming the most common target of ECT. Because of the lopsided
risk/benefit ratio, because it is fundamentally traumatic in nature, because so many of the patients are vulnerable and unable to protect themselves, and because advocates of ECT fail to provide informed consent to patients – ECT should be banned.
Electroshock “According to the National
Head Injury Foundation, each treatment equals
one moderate-to-severe head injury. And as a
series of shocks are prescribed – eight
to fifteen on average and as many as one per
month on an indefinite basis – the wounding
intensifies.”
Gary Null
You also stated, “someone needs to actually talk about the facts of ECT.” Obviously, you were serious; since you cited NONE.
For clarification, the Anti-psychiatry/survivor crowd have good damn reason to feel as they do. Why would you feel it necessary to belittle or down play the fact that ECT is also potentially DEADLY?
Hello Becky,
You are correct, this is my blog, this is my opinion.
I’m not sure your ire is quite so well-placed.
ECT is deadly? Correct. Any time you undergo a general anesthetic you risk death. You know what else is risky? Crossing the street. Or, in the case of ECT, childbirth as ECT is 10X safer than childbirth.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9342128
Efficacy of ECT, arguable, to be sure. Appears to be related to population and treatment type. In this case 67.1% of typical depressives and 80.6% of atypical depressives reached remission after bilateral treatment: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18278988
Safety of ECT has been widely studied and I certainly can’t summarize the data here. No one source really has the answer as it is population and dose-dependent. There are 264 articles listed on Pubmed for ECT safety and this topic has been studied in every population imaginable.
ECT appears safer now, “The safety and tolerability of electroconvulsive treatment have been enhanced by the use of modified stimulation techniques and by progress in modern anesthesia.”
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18472488
Interesting case of 92-year-old who had undergone 91 ECT sessions during her life with no apparent cognitive decline: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17548979
Ah, a Breggin quote. I won’t bother dignifying Breggin with an answer. Many people have critiqued his work and he’s never run a study, not to mention the fact that he thought children having sex with children was a good idea. Oh, and he’s a fan of Scientology.
And Gary Null? A PhD that as far as I can tell is unpublished. He’s got problems with AIDS, autism, cancer treatment and everything else that doesn’t involve a fruit or vegetable. His opinion is as valid as anyone else’s but it’s certainly not a fact.
I have no doubt there are some people who are angry and I have no doubt they have their reasons. As I stated, ECT is a gamble. As I stated, ECT kills brain cells. It doesn’t change the fact that ECT saves people.
– Natasha
You are wrong about my victim mentality you are wrong about my person issue with ECT and psychiatry in general. My only issues are FORCED treatment and Lack of Informed Consent. Court Ordering a person to Involuntary drugging or ECT is a Human Rights issue. It is wrong to force potentially disabling or deadly “treatment” upon a person, IMHO. Here in the US, these people have their Constitutional Rights violated as a matter of course. THAT is my issue. I read more on your site and see that it is not important to you Ms. Tracy. Had I read more of your hyperbole before making my prior comment, I would have kept my opinion to myself.
Herb: The quote you attribute to me is not mine. It is from the abstract of the article in the International Journal of Risk and Safety in Medicine on ECT. I am not opposed to any person choosing to get any kind of treatment–including your wife.
I did not call anyone any names; yet you Ms Tracy and your twit buddy bipolar badger denigrate others who have different views–NICE.
Hi Becky,
I spend a good part of my life advocating for people with mental illness to receive care and to reduce stigma. I also feel while I do not agree with the anti-psych movement in most cases and feel that some of the good things they are trying to do are co-oped by extremists. I believe there is a place for both voices. What I do not do is troll people’s blogs who have a different voice and belittle their personal choices and healthcare decisions, and yes mental health is a healthcare issue. My brain is still part of my entire physical being and can be ill as much as my liver could.
I never force one treatment, medication or anything else on anyone, I just state my experiences.
I am so sorry if my experiences do not mesh with your world mental health view. So you have a choice do not read my blog or any other that gets you so fired up, admit that there is a place for every voice or just leave us alone.
It is my mind and my life and if ECT works for me I should have the ability to access this treatment. Your argument and style follows the same route as the Pro Life movement, hate and frenzy and to deny a legal right to others. My mind freedom includes ECT & medications, they have saved my life. My friends, family have me in their lives because of them. Are they perfect? No, Do some have effects, why yes. But so does chemotherapy.
Again, Becky has emailed me her comment:
Becky says,
“Steven,
How hard is it to understand I am opposed to FORCED ECT? Obviously if you choose to get ECT because it works for you; you should have the option. One wonders if you are intentionally obtuse or defensive for some other reason?
I have spent the last 17 years as an advocate–and you are right everyone should be heard. I would also say that no one should call someone a “nut job” because their experience is different. ALL DUE RESPECT, it was not evident that either you or Natasha were “advocates” for the mentally ill in your “nut job” conversation.
The fact she denied taking part, doesn’t say much for her “credibility.”
Respectfully,
Becky”
Everything you have said I did not talk about in this post. I could have, but didn’t.
As for my “hyperbole” I listed a bunch of studies for the issues you mentioned. I’m not sure how hyperbolic that is.
Twitter, yes, it’s a less formal medium. We were talking about someone other than you, actually, but I don’t particularly retract the comments. When you cite sources who are not respected scientifically and are known to make many outrageous claims then yes, it makes you too look less credible.
– Natasha
Becky,
You have been sending emails to me. I’m not sure that is your intent. They appear to be comments on this post.
Becky’s comment:
“You are being less than honest at the time you and your twit were neck talking, “I’m on her blog now” and what do you know, you were! Then you sent him a link to it! Why lie? Maybe you will claim it’s your brain damage???”
Ah, quite right. I’m not quite sure what “neck-talking” is but I did check through my Twitter logs:
“Becky makes an anti-ECT, pro-Breggin appearance, and I give her an answer: http://bit.ly/grJLJI”
As far as I can tell you made an anti-ECT, pro-Breggin appearance. I wouldn’t call that brain damage so much as accuracy.
– Natasha
Steven…thanks for sharing your more positive views on ECT.
I completely agree with you about people being afraid of being judged by others if they opt to have ECT. I know when my psychiatrist first mentioned it to me I personally even judged myself, instantly thinking, “wow, I must be way crazier than I thought”, and I completely broke down in tears (mind you I was also extremely depressed at the time). It’s really too bad that the small group of people who have had such bad experiences with it are so outspoken, and the people who have had neutral or good experiences with it are generally too ashamed to speak about their experiences with ECT. When I was trying to make my decision whether to do it or not it was those people who I really wanted to hear from.
Thanks again for speaking up,
Jessica
Hi Jessica,
I think I caused some confusion. Steven’s post is actually going to be Tuesday or Wednesday and I wrote this post in preparation, to give people a bit of context for what Steven has to say. I think I wasn’t terribly clear about that.
I completely agree with you and think you said it well. I dismissed ECT out of hand for more than a decade. Not that it worked when I finally did it, of course, but still consideration is worth, well, considering.
Yes, I think people should be looking for reasoned, average experiences with ECT. People have good/bad/other experiences, but talking about them openly and not sensationalisticly is more helpful for everyone.
Steven is absolutely brave for speaking up and that’s why I wanted his words here. Look for them in the next couple of days.
– Natasha