One of the problems with the antipsychiatry movement is they assert all of psychiatry, all doctors, all science is lying, pretty much all of the time. Any biological evidence for mental illness must be wrong, because if it isn’t, then psychiatry might make sense. Any evidence antidepressants help a brain must be wrong, because otherwise antipsychiatry views might come into question.
But seriously, does any rational, thinking person really believe all of science, all over the world, is lying?
Antipsychiatry Viewpoints
For the purposes of this article* I’ll define antipsychiatry as the viewpoint that mental illness isn’t biological (mental illness doesn’t exist) and psychiatrists do more to poison their patients than to help them. I’ll define antipsychiatry as those who think treatment shouldn’t include psychiatric (psychotropic) medication (psych meds). (Some antipsychiatry people are against psychology as well.)
Antipsychiatry folks have made their views quite clear to me through sentiments left in comments like:
- Taking medication is a chemical lobotomy
- Psychiatrists are all biased by virtue of being psychiatrists
- Psychiatrists are monsters and are only the most unintelligent of doctors
- Electroconvulsive therapy (ECT, electro-shock therapy) is rape
- Every study is biased as health care companies fund doctors, hospitals, studies and universities
And I could go on. Those espousing antipsychiatry viewpoints tend to be very loud.
All Psychiatrists Are Stupid, Psychiatrists Are the Most Unintelligent of Doctors
Well, see, this is an idiotic argument on its face. I get antipsychiatry folks don’t like psychiatrists, but suggesting psychiatrists are the least intelligent of doctors has no basis in fact. I have met many psychiatrists. I am pretty darn smart, and I can tell you, I have yet to meet one that I think is generally of lesser intelligence. Lacking people skills? Yes. Ambivalent? Sure. But unintelligent? Nope; even the dumbest one I ever met seemed smarter than the average person.
Psychiatrist Qualifications
Psychiatrist qualifications are the following:
- A bachelors degree, generally with pre-med courses (4 years)
- Medical school (4 years)
- Psychiatric residency (4 years, 5 in Canada)
- Oral and written board certification exams
- Psychiatrists may further subspecialize into a subspecialty like neuropsychiatry or child and adolescent psychiatry (another year plus additional certification)
- “The total amount of time required to complete post-baccalaureate work in the field of psychiatry in the United States is typically 12 years of training.”
See, it’s pretty hard to argue psychiatrists are stupid. If you really think that, go through the 12 years of school and let me know how easy it was. Or do a meta-analysis on med school records based on specialty.
If you want to assert the claim that psychiatrists are stupid, then you have to provide some evidence.
Psychiatrists Lie to Patients
To be fair, everyone lies, and doctors, I think, likely “shade the truth” more than others. I think it would be pretty difficult to assert they are “lying” but not being as forthcoming as they should be, well, yes, many do fall into that category. (Sometime I’ll write more about this. It’s a more complex issue than you might think.)
However, the idea psychiatrists are willy-nilly lying to patients is quite absurd. I have yet to see and out-and-out lie and yet to see a single shred of evidence suggesting, psychiatrists lie to their patients. Does it happen? Oh sure, I have no doubt, but to suggest that all psychiatrists do it is patently fallacious.
Psychiatrists Are Bought by Drug Companies
One could argue the incestuous nature of the relationship between psychiatrists and drug companies. There’s no doubt advertising works (otherwise they wouldn’t do it) and I suspect some medications are overprescribed due to the influence of advertising of drugs to doctors and patients;[1] however, this is a far cry from saying they are “bought off.”
Do you know the most common medication for bipolar? Lithium. Know who makes money from lithium? Not really anyone because lithium is an old drug with multiple generics available. It is cheap and from a drug company perspective, no one cares about it.
Why Do Doctors Prescribe Specific Drugs?
I would say there are two main reasons doctors tend to prescribe certain drugs:
- Free samples, which can often be given to a patient for more than a year (patients have a hard time paying for meds, including psych meds, in the US)
- Information disseminated locally suggesting the drug is a good choice (information from other doctors, and yes, drug companies)
I would suggest in neither case are doctors “bought” by drug companies. In both cases I would suggest doctors are making what they consider to be the right decision, even if, perhaps, it turns out they were wrong.[2]
Again, this is a complicated issue that requires its own post, but again, I have yet to see evidence of widespread “buying” of doctors/psychiatrists. (Average M.D.s are actually quite different than psychiatrists in terms of prescribing practices, but that’ll have to wait for a later post too.)
Science Is Lying. Scientists Are Lying.
This, again, is one of the dumber arguments made by antipsychiatry. I read studies all the time and these studies come from every corner of the globe. You are as likely to see a paper from Israel as from Italy as from the US as from New Zealand as from Britain.
Every Country Has Tainted Science?
If anyone can explain how all the countries of the world have tainted science I’d like to hear it. More and more, people are recruiting scientists and patients world-wide to cover more variation in population (which comes with its own challenges, but I digress). [pull]Every scientist is unethical? Every scientist is paid off? Seriously, you expect me to buy that?[/pull]
For example, this paper from Switzerland on the neurobiology (biological evidence) of depression cites studies from Britain, the US, Germany, Israel, Japan and so on and so forth. Does anyone really think someone got all these scientists, from all these countries, together in a room and said, “Just to let you know, you have to show biological evidence of depression in your studies, but keep it on the DL.”
People Want Big Answers to Little Problems
Psychiatry, has issues. Medicine, has issues. Health care, has issues. I would never suggest otherwise.
But the doctrine of “psychiatrists are evil,” “psychiatrists only want to make money,” “psychiatrists don’t care about patients,” “psychiatrists don’t help anyone,” is just ridiculous. It’s hard to imagine the forces of greed and malevolence sustaining a person through 12 years of school. Is it possible? Probably. Is it likely? I think not. (If you want to fuck people and make money, there are easier ways. Some requiring no training at all.)
If Psychiatry Is Evil, Then Science Must Be Lying
And in order to maintain the belief that psychiatrists are evil, people have to believe science is wrong too. Because science contradicts the “evil psychiatrist” theory. Science refutes the “mental illness doesn’t exist” dogma. Science supports the positive impact of treatment on the body. Sure, science runs counter to conventional wisdom too, but that’s why we have it, to further refine our knowledge over time.[3]
Psychiatry Is a Conspiracy
People want to believe there is a big conspiracy driving the problems in their lives and in the lives of others. It gives them something to rile against, something to fight, and something to blame. It stops people for having to take responsibility over their own choices. “The evil doctor made me do it.”
But the truth is not nearly so dramatic. In reality doctors, psychiatrists and everyone else is just trying to make the best decision they can with the information available. Some psychiatrists are unethical. Some mechanics are unethical. Some accountants are unethical. You know, like everyone else.
Scientists aren’t out to lie; psychiatrists aren’t out to make your sick; the world is not conspiring against those with a mental illness. We just don’t get it right all the time. No one does.
Well, well Riley C
You sure are puffed up and full of yourself!
It may be possible that you have a degree in psychology (but whether its a bachelor or doctorate thats still not an MD, which is one of the requirements on the road to becoming a psychiatrist). While a psychologist may diagnose a mental illness they can NOT prescribe medication. A psychologist is not a medical doctor. This should be obvious to you
Yes I have also heard of PET scans and MRI’s but the sad fact is that they are rarely used to diagnose mental illness. If you were like most of the people in this world who are actually treated for a “biological” mental illness by a psychiatrist you would know that! Many patients here and elsewhere have gone to various psychiatrists over the years and have received a different diagnosis by each one, without ever having had a PET scan or MRI
I also see that your post was moderated…
That says alot to me about your way of relating to others. Its certainly not conduct becoming of a professional psychologist. Hmmm. Makes me evenwonder why type of “therapeutic relationship” you have with your clients??? I wouldn’t pay a nickle to work with you!!!
Do any of you anti psychiatry [moderated] have a PhD in psychology? I do. Psychiatric disorders have been proven time and time again to be brain disorders! You can tell from a PET scan or a fMRI if a person has schizophenia. Such as large ventricles and frontal cortex atrophy. Similar things are seen in bipolar disorder. You antipsychritry morons should be [moderated].
Moderator – I understand how frustrated you are with these groups as I feel the same way but we have rules here as to how people treat each other and you can’t say those kinds of things here.
wow, the narcissist shrink with a PhD wants to be stroked for academic genius..?
they’re like communists, stuck in their theories and missing the reality. They’re inflexible. I considered myself abused by one of those fools. She’s like that hag in V for Vendetta that got what she deserved. My best years was ripped away and now FINALLY 17 years lately thanks to me reading up on psychiatry,drugs I am almost appreciating being alive.
Suffice to say, I see MOST of them as more incompetent than evil. I have disdain for the strebers in their tribe as well. They expect the patient to always be wrong. I doubt that even “I am feeling a lot better” is good enough for them. Instead they insist on pushing on crap elevating prolactine-levels. “Hello dear doctor, I may perhaps think I have some state of hypodopaminergia in my cranium!”. “No problem,, I give you SSRI/SNRI *facepalm* never mind it hasn’t done anything or enough last 10 times.
However, I’ve met a really cooperative and kind man helping me out much though I wish he hadn’t been sceptical towards selegiline around 2005(which is what made feel somewhat alive again after these year). Also I am grateful this internetdoc I got in touch with who recommended selegiline.. at least 8 years lost due to antirecommendation though. But I forgive that doc as he was competent.
This new one basically forced me to get in touch with the interwebdoc. I can imagine what would happen to those “weaker” patients stuck with that kafkacaricature. Ive tried to get him fired 2 times already.. and if he hasn’t been tamed yet I’ll try again.
Just imagine the situation, you feel shit(suicidal), your confidence are undermined, you are traumatized, actually been so fscked over you cant feel at all. Then you run into a dipshit giving you highdose antipsychotics and most likely bogusdiagnosis with that telling herself and the patient it’s really gotten better. But no, in all kind of ways you gets worse but that’s not a problem..
that’s what happen when your’e taught to distrust yourself.
I’m glad I come to this site, I was with a psychiatrist who was the most arrogant deviant psychiatrist you could meet, I was severely psychologicly abused by him I stood up to him in the end and told him what I thought of him I had to see him even though a repeatedly asked to see someone else and a was in a very vunrable situation,he refused, what happened next was he lied through his teeth and played sever psychological games and made sure no one would believe me, he discharched me and made sure when iI did leave I was completely screwed up,
I was on my own and what he done was sickening I was all I can say is fitting for the next 6years couldn’t control my body like some who just come out of the trenches thousands of nights without sleep,,, he made sure I would never be employed and made sure I had no recoarse to defend myself,,,over the years I’ve seen some records but withheld many, the lies he told are unbelievable,,he one said the evidence of diagnosis is because I would not give an address and I’ve always behaved in this was,reality is yes I could not give and address because I was homeless, but it just seems what they persive in their head is reality and fact and evidence, when the fact is it is not its not their experience,,,,,,,,
He gave I’ve had countless diagnosis its been nine years I recently found out he gave another diagnosis on top of this which was kept from me until recently and that diagnosis would make sure no one would believe me, I tried to get justice for many years but was just laughed at or played games with, its like dealing with tribe and I’m the outsider and no human,,,,its been awful and that mental health abuse nine years ago has taken my life away from me including all my hope and dreams they have made sure I well never be employed and an whole host of other things,,,,I’ve not gone back to them, I’ve tried so hard to get justice’ I went to go in end I had to and found I have unstable angina go doesn’t believe me even though it took a great deal to see a go and I’m in panic anytime a see someone from NHS it bring it all up to the front,,, I docter done a test and said I needed to he to hospital for heart I saiid I can’t right then as I’ve just put my dog to sleep and really wasn’t in place to go anywhere,,so docter said if you won’t go I well get mental health and they well section you and make you go, I havt been back to gp. Havnt been back to docter I know go is not allowed to do that in uk buy law, I’ve run out of medication and I know I’m going to die, I’ve had enough and I know I told the truth about the psychological abuse and lies from the shrink and in away all the others, it effects me everyday it haunts me and it won’t leave me and the effects of what they did, I’m not believed even though I told the truth completely,,, and yes I’m going to die and its in gods hands now when I go home, my heart well fail I know this, yet he and mental health have taken my futer away trust away any and I would have been OK if they did not do what they did intentionally,, I can’t do it anymore ,
So yes psychiatrist do lie they do play with diagnosis for their own gain, and do destroy lives compltley for the own egoic gain, I don’t know how long I’ve got left to live but enough is enough with NHS, etc,,I’ve been of medication for 4months now and won’t have anymore medical treatment its up to god not them, they mental health has already taken my life away and he is in my head everyday and its been nines years now,,,so they do lie and I do realise now they don’t really know what they are doing unless its for their own pleasure,,
Thank you for reading and sorry for spelling as I’ve dyslexia,
Thank you.
Arron.
You are being really dimissive towards a lot of serious concerns by people who have attempted to seek help, often early on in their emotional distress, only to be prescribed inappropriate drugs that turned out to be harmful. This entire field is broken and now lacks the ability to help pretty much anyone. This is not something to be cavalier about. Many people suffer and are left in an incedibly terrible state because of mismanagement of their em otional distress. Often, cases are mismanaged by multiple mental health care workers over decades until the patient who origionally presented with emotional distress now presents with Bipolar. You do not seem to care about all that though. You are too busy trying to look smart to stop and listen to constructive and even unconstructive criticism. Do you think people are complaining for no reason? Who has the time? How insensitive and uncaring. You do not look smart at all to me.
I am helping a friend with bipolar 1 —-he has been suffering for years–instead of hospital stays he was thrown in jail over and over. Then after a major manic episode so over the top we had him admitted ——-of course there is the 72 hour law so after 1 week he was out. The hospital upped his meds before he left but didnt have a blood work script for him. His first apt was at a clinic a week later and all they did was ask demographic questions and they didnt have a therapy until 6 week. He still wasnt acting right so I begged for blood work it came out fine but the nurse practioner upped his meds again. He went to californina and the new clinic didnt take blood either but abruptly moved his morning meds–and the next apt wouldnt be for 4 weeks and he was having a tough time. Now the meds made him sleep so I pushed for blood work again and by this time he was cutting his own meds in half so I told the Dr that he is addicted to mania but the dr insisted on wellbutrin –but I know he is normally hyper and the meds are making him tired but the dr pushed and used the word energy and manic people love energy…….this pychiatrist new that he was only taking 500 mg of depakote and 1 mg or risperdol and not even doing it nightly but gave him wellbutrin anyway and now he is lost in mania and we cant get him to comply…..shame on everyone
also it would be refreshing if one dr would suggest—have you even seen an endocrinologist? check your body then your mind
I think that the whole notion that Psychiatrists are stupid comes from the fact that it is the easiest residency to get matched to (actually ties with Family Practice). See residency matching is based on a large amount by USMLE scores. If you look at a chart of average score by residency then you will see Psych is at the very bottom. The top is stuff like derm, plastics , radiology, etc.
With that being said I am NOT implying that Psychiatrists are stupid by any means. Most med schools take around 6-11% of the people that apply. Even though some people will try to “get in the backdoor” by going to a foreign medical school they still have to meet rigorous licensing standards and score well enough to get a residency at all.
So, my point was that NO Physician is unintelligent given the standards it takes to get through Med School. I am simply pointing out why critics call Psychiatrists stupid.
A “mental issue” was assigned to me so as to try and force me into things I never wanted. I still have “this foul illness” that “only specific personnel and interested parties” seem to be able to identify.
So much for psychiatry.
Here is a little link to a story by Ben Goldacre, a UK GP and writer who specialises in debunking bad science (eg he looks at the evidence for homoeopathy and then gets all upity on how bad the science behind it is). He has written a new book on the evils of pharmaceutical companies and how this is bad for everybody. It is called, Bad Pharma: how drug companies mislead doctors and harm patients. This section is based largely on the science behind a particular anti-depressant, but the same arguments apply to other psyche drugs and also many other drugs. He isn’t, “Anti-psychiatry,” he is a GP who is passionate about the truth that is inherent in science and how bad science puts us all at risk. Yet the arguments he presents are just those that many people who consider themselves anti psychiatry or critical of psychiatry hold.
Here is a quote from the book: “Drugs are tested by the people who manufacture them, in poorly designed trials, on hopelessly small numbers of weird, unrepresentative patients, and analysed using techniques that are flawed by design, in such a way that they exaggerate the benefits of treatments. Unsurprisingly, these trials tend to produce results that favour the manufacturer. When trials throw up results that companies don’t like, they are perfectly entitled to hide them from doctors and patients, so we only ever see a distorted picture of any drug’s true effects. Regulators see most of the trial data, but only from early on in a drug’s life, and even then they don’t give this data to doctors or patients, or even to other parts of government. This distorted evidence is then communicated and applied in a distorted fashion.”
here is a link to the article: http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2012/sep/21/drugs-industry-scandal-ben-goldacre
A group of powerful UK psychiatrists have done untold damage to the lives of people with “Myalgic Encephalomyelitis” in this country. Their choosing to ignore medical evidence and ignoring the World Health Organisation’s classification of this Neurological disease has had devastating consequences for people with “ME” and their families. Read about Sophie Mirza who was seriously ill with “ME” and what they did to her and you will see psychiatry and medicine at it’s worst!
Hi Ann,
I’m letting this comment go but you should be aware that creating multiple accounts to post under violates the commenting policy here. Please post under one name only.
– Natasha Tracy
Yeah, sorry about that Natasha! I’m Sue Ann Brodie, but there was a glitch in sending it. It said I’d duplicated the comment when I hadn’t, so I tried sending again under my first name and other email address. I haven’t read the rules regarding posting, so please accept my apologies! I must point out though that my comment was important in the context of the article you’ve written, yet you didn’t comment on the content of my post, instead you chose to be petty about my seemingly deliberately breaking your rules instead. Having read some of your responses to other posts, I found that quite disappointing as it trivialised what was really important!
Sorry again! Forgot to change my name in reply box before posting my reply. Ann
Hi Ann,
I’m not dismissing your comment I simply have nothing to say about it. I cannot keep up with every issue in every country nor can I reply to every comment. I’m sorry, but it’s just not possible. I’ve already spent an hour-and-a-half replying to comments this morning and there’s only so much time I can give.
– Natasha Tracy
Tracy, I think you’re taking a very complex issue and simplifying way to much. It’s okay if you want to tell people how you feel about something, but label it as such.
Did you know that the drug companies to get SSRI’s on the market only showed the studies that produced positive results, which mislead both doctors and patients into believing the drugs are much more effective then they actually are. (1)
Did you know that the U.S, has performed more lobotomies, then any other country in the world?(3)
Did you know in 1957, 28 states had laws permitting the sterilization of the mentally ill??(3)
Did you know that according to the FDA that “Antidepressants increased the risk of suicidal thinking and behavior (suicidality) in short-term studies in children and adolescents with Major Depressive Disorder (MDD) and other psychiatric disorders. Anyone considering the use of [Drug Name] or any other antidepressant in a child or adolescent must balance this risk with the clinical need. Patients who are started on therapy should be observed closely for clinical worsening, suicidality, or unusual changes in behavior.”?
Did you know up until 1974, homosexuality was consider a mental illness according to the American Psychiatric Association, until 1974 homosexuality was a mental illness.
Did you know thatit was discovered that those with schizophrenia in less developed countries do better according to the world health organization? According to the world health organization.
As you can see all my information comes from reputable sources. I consider myself part of the anti-psychiatry movement, because at this moment in time I believe that the psychiatric field does more damage then good. However, even with the facts I provided I do not know for certain whether I am right or not, I just believe I am right due to what I have read on the subject. I’m not going to claim to have a IQ of one zillion and you should believe whatever I say because I’m so smart, but what I am going to say is your making rash judgement about people based on your feelings without knowledge of what the anti-psychiatry movement is really about.The wiki article is very informative please read it(5). Yeah, maybe some people think that Mental health professionals are just evil, but then again some people believe the president was born in Kenya. People believe all sorts of things, but that doesn’t give you the right to stereotype a movement that you don’t understand. That said if you have had positive experience with therapy I’m glad and do believe that their is effectiveness to some modern treatments, however as whole I’m not convinced that psychiatry is helping more people then it hurts, but this just my opinion.
P.S. I apologize about my comment about citing your sources, I’m not that good with computers and did not realize that your links were connected to the words, however you should cite where you got anti-psychiatry views from.
1.http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/17/health/17depress.html?_r=0
2http://www.wired.com/thisdayintech/2010/11/1112first-lobotomy/
3.http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,862556,00.html
4.http://www.pbs.org/wnet/brain/episode3/cultures/index.htmlhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-psychiatry
5.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-psychiatry
Hi Max,
(It’s Natasha, by the way.)
I’m not taking a complicated issue and simplifying it too much – I’m taking the words of people who come here and I’m treating them like they deserve. It’s others who simplify. I’m happy to admit it’s complex. And as far as opinion, yes, much of it is opinion or accepted science. Or logic. Which I’d like to think is obvious.
And yes, I do know all those things. I know a lot about the pharmaceutical industry, psychiatry and antipsychiatry. And I don’t care about what happened in 1957 or 1974. I care about what happens now. Do you have any idea on the amount of progress that has been made in those 40 years?
And FYI, I have read that wiki on antipsychiatry and commented on it specifically and people got rather mad saying that wasn’t real antipsychiatry either. And as for stereotyping, I don’t tend to do that. I acknowledge in most pieces that far too many people identify as antipsychiatry to characterize them all. I just have to do with the general principles and published work on it as that’s what makes the most sense.
– Natasha Tracy
Interestingly there are studies that show that doctor ratings are often influenced by how likable they are so a bad doctor may get good ratings if their patients like them. So I’m guessing that people who felt they were treated badly by their psychiatrists are going to say that they’re bad doctors even though the doctors may have done all the “right things” in terms of “standards of care”. Also in terms of the “science is lying” bit, I think that’s stated too strongly but there are definitely problems with the way clinical trials are run and how results are disseminated. It is reality that bad studies get published and retracted and that studies showing negative results are usually not published. Dr. Eric Turner, a psychiatrist with the VA had to do a freedom of information request to get results of many of these negative result studies for antidepressants. Even the editor of the New England Journal of Medicine Dr. Marcia Angell, resigned saying it was no longer possible to believe much of the clinical research published and she is still the strongest critic, asking if academic medicine is for sale. So it is a very real and complex issue.
Hi Marcela,
Nice to see you over here :)
I do agree that our own perception of a doctor tends to color whether we think they’re “good” or not. It’s difficult to separate how we feel about a doctor and the real job that they did. I can do it, but most people don’t seem to be able to. (And, of course, sometimes doctors are nice but don’t do the best job, that’s even worse.)
I agree that there are problems with clinical trials in some cases. No doubt about it but I know of Dr. Angell and she’s coming from a very skewed perspective, I believe.
Yes it’s a real and complex problem but I think the issue that I have is that scientists often agree on certain things because of multiple trials that have replicated results and I believe it is safe to assume that when studies run in many countries (many studies get participants from multiple countries, you probably know that) it’s hard to suggest that there’s collusion going on.
There’s just way too much “conspiracy” nonsense out there when it comes to some people looking at science.
Seriously, even three people can’t keep a secret, let alone thousands.
– Natasha Tracy
LOL, well it’s not exactly secret when people are debating this so much.
But the word “conspiracy” tends to reek of Mulder and the X-Files.
I think a good story idea would be to describe the FDA approval process and what is required to approve or take a drug off the market. I just saw the movie “Escape Fire” on the healthcare crisis and one example used was a diabetes drug which was fast-tracked by FDA but the drug company deliberately withheld information about the side effects of increased heart attacks. There tends to be a lot of media hype with all the subsequent congressional hearings and such when things like that happen.
I kind of naively wish that people would get inspired to become citizen scientists and that data discovery could be empowering rather than making someone feel like a guinea pig or alienated from the process altogether. There’s definitely a communication gap on the various sides which is demoralizing.
Hi Marcela,
I agree that talking about the steps the FDA takes to approve a drug would be useful but there’s just one problem with those types of articles – no one reads them. I wrote about determining drug names (which, of course, are all about marking) and no one really cared (except me).
(It’s sort of a two-part thing. Here, if you’re interested: http://www.healthyplace.com/blogs/breakingbipolar/2011/05/drugs-101-whats-in-a-brand-name/ and http://www.healthyplace.com/blogs/breakingbipolar/2011/05/please-dont-say-prozac/ )
As for citizen scientists, well, I don’t mean to offend my US brethren, but most people don’t have the education necessary to understand that kind of serious science. And most people don’t want to. I think there’s a trust factor and we have to both trust our doctors and hold _them_ accountable for understanding the science.
– Natasha Tracy
I think those who say things of that nature generally are more afraid of the truth thus they have to be lying. Sometimes people fear what they can’t see as in illnesses mental or otherwise. Just a thought.
I am your future, Baby: Brain damage, diabetes, neuromuscular damage, tardive dyskinesia, bladder damage, cataracts. The damage is cumulative and largely irreversible. But, hey, it’s American to accept the quick fix, the magic button. Good luck! The antipsychiatrists will be here to help you when you realize how profoundly Big Med has betrayed all of us.
Hello Madam,
I can’t comment on your experience as, obviously, I know nothing of it, but what I can say is that you’re making wildly unsubstantiated claims about what others may experience and it strikes me as nothing more than a biased fear tactic.
– Natasha Tracy
Brain damage: there’s some pretty decent evidence, from what I’ve seen, that mania causes damage to helper cells in the brain. Messes up the insulation around the wiring, so to speak. Don’t remember where I read the study. Patients with mania’s helper cell count was compared to the helper cell count of normal patients. Then they put some of the patients on meds. The ones on meds had helper cell populations recover to the same count level as normal patients. I really wish I remembered the link to go over the details of how they measured everything. But the point was that some of the brain damage done by uncontrolled mania can heal if the patient is medicated, and that the mood stabilizing medications aren’t just treating symptoms, they’re preventing damage and allowing damage to heal.
Diabetes: People with bipolar disorder are at a higher risk of diabetes than people without it, regardless of the meds. My family is riddled with bipolar spectrum problems. Everybody in my family eventually gets diabetes or hypoglycemia. And heart disease. The more we know, the more we’re coming to understand that what we call bipolar disorder is, as a genetic disease, a full-body problem that just shows up with the neurological symptoms *first*. The nearly uncontrollable carb cravings increase the risk of obesity, and obesity increases the risk of diabetes, but my 75 year old mother has never been obese in her life. She’s 4’11” and weighs under 100 lbs, and about a year ago she came down with diabetes. Keeping a healthy body weight didn’t keep her from getting diabetes. Not being on psych meds didn’t keep her from getting diabetes. She had the genes to get diabetes, nothing else killed her first, so eventually she got diabetes. Lifestyle issues delay onset of your genetic problems–they don’t rewrite your genetic book.
Neuromuscular problems and tardive dyskinesia? — Not really a problem if you’re not on neuroleptics. If they do turn out to be an issue with other classes of drugs, with some patients, down the road, then promptly discontinuing at the very first symptom is the gold standard, and it works.
Not sure on the bladder thing.
Cataracts — yeah, they have surgery for that. Mom just had it. Very happy with the results.
Hi JulieC,
OK, so that’s a much better answer than I was prepared to give :)
In case you were wondering, depression is associated with changes in the brain, one might suggest damage, too:
“Volumetric reductions of the hippocampus, basal ganglia and OFC and SGPFC are consistently found in MDD patients, with more persistent forms of MDD (e.g., multiple episodes or repeated relapses, longer illness duration) being associated with greater impact on regional brain volumes.”
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19237202
There’s lots of research on this and it’s generally accepted that depression shrinks parts of the brain.
Bipolar changes the brain too, but it’s more complicated due to the multiple mood states. It’s thought that drugs like lithium can help in these cases: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22818781
– Natasha Tracy
Food for thought from the archives of general psychiatry http://archpsyc.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=211084 No study of this type has been done to my knowledge with antidepressants, but it does make you think a bit.
Then there is this. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21459521
Hi Instrumentalcase,
Yes, there are concerns with antipsychotics and brain shrinkage – I’ve written about it here: http://www.healthline.com/health-blogs/bipolar-bites/do-antipsychotics-shrink-your-brain
And tardive dyskinesia is always a concern with antipsychotics, no argument there.
– Natasha Tracy
Natasha, the 2nd link I have from NIH was about antidepressant tartdive dysphoria, not tardive dyskinesia. Thanks for reading.
Instrumentalcase,
Sorry, serves me right for skimming so quickly. I’m actually not very familiar with tardive dysphoria so I’ll take a look at that when I get a minute.
Thanks.
– Natasha Tracy
Natasha,
Where did all the haters come from? I do not know how you tolerate the mean-spirited, vile, criticism that came at you. Excuse me guys, are we a tad bit put off by a women who is intelligent, rational, caring and remains loyal to the courage of her convictions? That makes you froth at the mouth? You might have passionate beliefs but that doesn’t mean they are true. I try to be open-minded and am well aware of the anti-psychiatry cult-like determination to demolish the faith that desparately mentally ill people need to hang onto to get through one more day. How dare you. I, along with countless others, been that person. Do you have any idea or care to acknowledge the fragility of someone one who is very sick and terrified? I have an assortment of disorders and was agoraphobic and housebound for six years. Many doctors,many meds. People put a lot of effort into trying to trying to find the right meds, therapy, etc. Don’t know why. Finally a kind, psychiatric, who actually listened to patients figured out what we needed to address and the med that would likely take away the obsessive thoughts that caused anxiety and triggered the constant panic attacks. Yes, i did try to find every resource and be open-mind about possibilities and that medication freed me to live a life again. To be almost euporic that I could walk out the door free from the agony of being alive yet losing your life. Please do not pressume that you are out to save the “psychiatricI survivors” Those testimonies are actually laugh out loud funny because they are so phony and full of distorted thinking..Oh yeah, my IQ is above average but I think my common sense and ability to perceive truth and determination to speak truth and defend those put down for doing so is a pleasure.
Ohyeah I worked as a case manager for severely mentally ill. Worked with may psychiatrist, nurses clinicians, all that make up a team. They were mostly deicated and sincere. Sure, there were a few arrogant ones too. Psych drugs are powerful and I completely agree that more needs to be done to inform patients or their care givers of possible side effects and long-term affects. Truly I want to work with an already established group or start one.
My son is mentally ill too. So if you are going to comment, I have to worn you that there are the genecticallyAnd yes, becase That is . dedicated had to stop reading the
Hi Laurie,
Before starting on the journey of being so public, I didn’t realize how many people would end up hating me. I never considered myself worthy of such vehement attention. But these people come and it’s indicative of how many people are listening to me. If people didn’t pay attention, those that hate wouldn’t pop out of the woodwork, so one could see it as a successful mission in getting my words out there.
As for tolerating it, well, I’m a professional, and as a professional, I can’t let that sort of thing get to me and I certainly can’t sink to their level. I would like to, on many days, but I simply can’t. It would tarnish my image. And you know what they say, if you roll around in the mud with a pig, you both get dirty but the pig likes it.
I think that antipsychiatry folks can have their points when they’re being rational and reasonable, it’s just that many of them don’t seem to possess those traits. It seems to be those with the blackest hatred that try to represent the movement, and it’s awfully hard to respect that.
Regardless, I do my best to ignore it and try to write what I think it important regardless. Sometimes I fail, and they do get to me, but most of the time I simply focus on all my wonderful supporters, like yourself and try to remember that those people are my audience and that those people make it worthwhile.
– Natasha Tracy
Well now, Natasha is intelligent, that shows from her writing. But there is evidence, and quite well documented, which has been pointed out to Natasha, that mainstream psychiatry causes more harm than good and in my opinion to ignore this is not very caring.
The fact that a psychiatrist offered you a drug that worked for you is not in itself a justification of that particular treatment. Your account should not be ignored but it should not be taken in isolation.
The fact that you work in psychiatry is not proof that what your colleagues are offering is effective or safe. There are psychiatrists and psychiatric workers who criticise and bemoan mainstream psychiatrists and they are people who are respected in their profession, so we need more than a professional recommendation to take someone’s opinion seriously.
Having a mentally ill child when one is severely distressed is not that uncommon, however that in itself is not proof of any genetic predisposition. You need large scale studies to show a link. Indeed there are large scale studies that show that mental distress runs in families, but no one has any serious proof that this is genetic.
People critique Natasha’s writing for many reasons. One being that people have been hurt, or seen people they care about be hurt by the sort of treatments Natasha promotes. Another is that it she is an easy target, quoting mainstream psychiatric wisdom with such vigour when it is so easy to track down studies and personal experiences that counter what she writes. She provides an excellent opportunity to practice ones arguments for a wider, and ultimately more important audience. She gives me practice for when I meet psychiatrist who I want to challenge at conferences, meetings and protests.
Nataha includes links to back up her statements for people to make informed desicions about their mental health treatment. People who promote anti psychiatry, not so surprisingly, do not because their claims are ridiculous and unfounded.
Me: “My mummy made me a homosexual”
Psychiatrist: “If I give her the wool will she make me one?”
That rather old joke is about as relevant to psychiatry and anti-psychiatry as this article.
[moderated]
I’d like you to cite your sources, this would add more credibility to your writing.
BINGO! This is what I thought as I read through this–there are lots and lots of bare assertions here, including all of the most important points the author is trying to make. Essentially, just statements of belief. Nothing wrong with that, but it’s important to recognize them for what they are.
I only need to say one sentence in challenge to your article . Natasha , there is this pych medication, that supposedly help mood and feel better , take those med , take it on a daily basis , keep a journal documenting the progress of your “better mood” of your “better self” . You see , all it takes is just actions , fact and documented science and experiment from you , and may the truth set us free .
Hi Caleb,
As with most people with a mood disorder, I have kept mood information daily for months on end and I have all the personal “data” I need. It’s a good exercise for anyone seeking help to do.
– Natasha Tracy
I would consider myself anti-psychiatry, but none of the view points I hold are that of the examples you give. I even believe that psychologist do want to help people. Also, please read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-psychiatry , I believe this will give you a better understanding of the criticisms towards psychiatry. I find that this article misinformed and judgmental and I would ask that you research your topic better before you make assumptions about what you believe people who are anti-psychiatry think, I know people on forums make rash judgments and rude comments, but that is not a true reflection of what anti-psychiatry is about.
This article is pure crap. Every doctor, every therapist, and every promoter of them and their revulsive practices are in league with each other. Who in their right mind would not be driven to despair in a world such as this? People die at the hands of fanatics, and nobody does anything. People peddle drugs illegal and legal, and people die; again, nobody does anything. American society has become nothing but the champion of mediocrity. There is no morality, only entitlement on an epic scale, and television. The only thing that I regret in my suicide, once completed, is that I can’t take the whole stinking cesspool of humanity with me.
Doctors are not in the business of making you well. They are in the business of keeping you sick. They cannot help you, and wouldn’t even if they could. They are all one step above child molester in my view. They do lie. They do cheat. And, we get to pay for the privilege while putting down their evil medications by the fistful.
Don’t play us. This article supports the lies.
Where is your proof the the contrary. This statement is ridiculous!
I admit I only read enough to understand that you are very much agaist this idea that there a group of believers that hate phyciatrists and want to didcredit them. For example when you said they are all called the dumbest doctors there are. Well they arent I agree,but what about them being smart and mostly sadistic using their power to hurt and kill not to help? Sounds crazy doesnt it, well so does your complaints about why people tend to dislike phyciatrists when you have never gone to one that I know of being a human like me, unlike me I have an I.Q. of 173 and I needed help with a couple of basic menal illnesses. Chalk them up to chemistry imbalance nothing to seriouse. Then without warning me about the medication he said I should try as if it were as harmless as candy after I asked. Later I found out he got me physically addicted to xanax telling me to take 1 every 6 hours and whenever I needed one also. The withdrawal from xanax has killed most healthy people in the first week of it. Its the worst of any drug. I suffered I almost died, so I confroted him and said he didnt even warn me. He argued that he did, I argued back and finally he said”Who are people going to believe the doctor or the nutcase?” Dr. Tsao in VA virginia beach. Every phyciatrist has proved to be even worse lying sadistic harmfull people, all that I have gone to for help.I have been smarter in common sense then everyone I ever have met and them well I have experienced first hand the many phyciatrists that have through horrible purposfull malractice tortured and even left me for dead.If you are thinking I must have abused xanax because as everyone who is either an idiot or a lier says you can only be addicted to a substance if you abuse it or mix it with other drugs. I have to say that it doesnt take my I.Q. to figure out that this dependence crap and no physical addiction bull is an insult to even suggest these beliefs. So if you believe it I guess if you drink coffee everyday then you would have to say that you arent physically addicted to caffiene. Thats ridiculouse, caffiene, alchohol,nicotine,heroin,cocain ,morhine,xanax, ambien,adderall, and many others are either physically addictive if you do them every day for roughly 7 days give or take of course then your addicted. I have studied every science I would need to to know this for a fact. Its my own common sense that appearantly is above most all others complete brainpower to understand something that is being lied about,why nobody can agree. The experts that comment on this stuff lie because they would be in deep #$@% if they told the truth. Not to mention out of a job. Its all about money. If you disagree I dont care you have already proven to be [moderated] If you dont like what Ive said you will only prove me to be right.I neither need you approval or opinion to know the facts, so go on scream and yell and complain all you want. I just wanted to tell you that I know your very, very wrong. So since ignorance and power are dangerouse please shut your mouth:)
Thanks for commenting, I like to read posts from smart people. I would really like to understand your knowledge and opinions on this matter. It seems that your thoughts are all mixed up though.
I know it’s hard to trust others when everyone is stupider than you. Most people are fairly well meaning though.
I am not a doctor so you will have to get a second opinion, but I think you are showing signs of thought disorder. The doctors will probably give you some antipsychotics, which will have awful side effects, some of which may never go away. For myself, I have found the side effects much better than the illness, since I also suffered from thought disorder. But it is a decision you will have to make on your own.
My sincere best wishes
I quite like Tricia’s questions, “What was the traumatic experience you went through as a child?
Or as an adult?
How many years and meds has it taken to stabilize you?”
you say you have had mixed experiences of psychiatry.
I’d really like to hear about them.
I think that would make interesting reading.
I don’t really think that it takes years to stabilise someone on meds though. They usually have an effect pretty quickly. If people get better over a period of years I think it is usually because there life has changed. However, your mixed experiences of psychiatry interests me and may add something to highlight some of the issues in this debate.
I think the problem I have with your article is that it trashes some opinions and labels them as anti-psychiatry when I think they are opinions worth examining and seeing why certain people align themselves with them and others, such as yourself, do not. I can see that saying ECT is like rape, especially if you or someone you know seems to have benefited from it. And I can see that if you like the effect of certain drugs have on you being told that they are like a lobotomy could be upsetting and annoying but there are scientific debates and personal experiences behind these opinions. I am conversant with these debates adn I also know people who say they have been helped by both ECT and medication.
My opinions are based on the writing and presentations of people who interpret the science and on personal experience. I’d like to read more of that in these articles, how does the science, as you see it, stack up with your personal experiences of good and bad psychiatry and of other service users.
I can do that, quote researchers whose work I trust and back that up with personal experience and come to arguments which you have characterised as anti-psychiatry but which I find expressed by psychiatrists and workers who have published and some of whom I have met.
I can understand you objecting to some people who rant and make frightening statements such as the drugs like olanzapine produce a chemical lobotomy (although I think there is evidence of this though I am not going on a crusade to get everyone off their medication ASAP) and who may leave you feeling condemned for going along with mainstream psychiatry but I don’t understand where you are coming from and why you feel the need to defend mainstream psychiatry as much as you do. Some more personal insights might help me in understanding why you have such disdain for what you are characterising as Anti-psychiatry.
Your article leaves me feeling slightly besmirched, as if I dont’ have evidence, both personal and science based, for my views. I don’t mind people calling them anti-psychiatry but I don’t generally use that term myself.
So please, could we have some more personal experiences from Natasha Tracy of how she came to be diagnosed, how the treatments have helped and hindered and her good and bad experiences of staff so that we can glean something about how she came to form her views?
Hi John,
Well, you might like the question, but that doesn’t mean it’s a reasonable one. I might want to know what you or Tricia went through as a child too, but it’s none of my business.
The reason I now hesitate on talking about my, personal, experience is because people like to attack me with it and I feel no need to make their job easier.
I’ve written about many of the mixed experiences here. For example, I went through a really rough course of ECT that I hated, was painful and didn’t work, but that doesn’t mean I’m against the treatment.
As for stabilization, it took two years. I could go into the whole process, but it involved misdiagnosis, the wrong meds, me being overly-sensitive to side effects and then luck when the right med came along. And you might think that it doesn’t take years to stabilize someone but you would be wrong. It can take months to do a proper med trial, and then if it doesn’t work, you have to taper off that med before starting a new one. You might get through one new med ever 3-4 months and everyone reacts differently to meds. It can easily take a year or two to find the drug that’s right for you, especially if you happen to be a difficult case (which I was).
And, for anyone curious, I also spent some time med-free in my first two years and I have never been closer to death. For all those who think med-free is a cure-all wonder-situation, good for them, but I certainly didn’t find it that way.
To be clear, I don’t label anyone antipsychitary – people label themselves. There are points of view that people who are antipsychiatry hold but that doesn’t mean everyone who holds each view is antipsychiatry. Some people identify that way, some people don’t, it has nothing to do with me. I’ve recently written more about antipsychiatry here: https://natashatracy.com/mental-illness-issues/antipsychiatry-what-why/
Saying ECT is like rape is bull. I’m sorry, but it just is. In a very tiny, minority of cases some people may feel that way, I have no doubt, but labelling the procedure that way in general is nonsense. The vast majority of people who do that treatment do so with very carefully obtain informed consent.
There is no scientific evidence saying that properly prescribed psychiatric drugs are like a lobotomy and if there is, I’d love to see it.
Finally, my opinions are based on my experience to some degree, sure, but in general they are based on generalities – the 80% and not the exceptions. I have been both a generality and an exception. In my opinion, it is not rational to judge a treatment based on a single person’s experience even if that person happens to be you.
– Natasha Tracy
You don’t have to answer them publically, but I think it is good question to answer for oneself. I don’t believe mental illnesses come from chemical imbalances or brains that just “are” different. Sure these two factors might exist, but I don’t think they just happen, they are usually result of sociopsychological factors.
I met people who insisted their depression is just like diabetus and once they find the miracle medication combo, things will be swell. They will became the person they wanted to be (but now they can’t because of their imbalances). MOst of them had godawful childhood and lifes and dwelled in it, but refused to adress it. After all they are depressed because of chemical imbalances in their brains. Not saying drugs cannot help… but they are just one tool to get there. There is no wonderful life in a pill. And thank God for that, because we know how it went in Brave New World.
I can track my craziness down to events in my life… I am trying to deal with both.
I met person who claimed she was helped by the ECT. Claimed it saved her life, but I always doubted it, because there didn’t seem to be much life in that body. She recovered slowly, on her own and with some good therapy… it came down again to the simple fact that you can electrify your brain as much as you want and take all the pills in the world… but you have to ignite that spark that makes us alive yourself. You have to figure out why and what for you want to live…. everything else is secondary.
Hi VenusH,
Well you are certainly free to feel that way but every day we learn about more and more the physical nature of mental illness including DNA biomarkers there from birth. You can discount that if you like, but it’s science at work.
There is no doubt however that lifestyle factors play a role. I have written about this very thing. http://www.healthyplace.com/blogs/breakingbipolar/2011/07/bipolar-disorder-is-caused-by-a-bad-childhood/
Negative experiences in life can put you at a greater risk for a mental illness but the effect is not causational.
And many people _do_ have the experience of being ill, such as being bipolar or depressed, and finding medication that _does_ make them feel like themselves again and get on with their lives just like before. This tends to be an underrepresented group online however as those people are busy living their lives and are not hanging out in mental illness chat rooms.
If you feel that your craziness is due to life events then you may just be right. Everyone is different.
And ECT does save lives, every day. Over 100,000 people a year get ECT and that’s because it works on more than 80% of depressed cases. People are living proof of that.
– Natasha Tracy
Dear me, sweeping statements but no quoted articles and certainly not psychiatry as it is practiced this side of the pond. ECT has damaged my friends and limited their lives. The mad houses are so bad that to say ECT has helped people when they have not been given basic care and loving attention is in no way a scientific proof of it’s effectiveness and the stuff I have read says it is not not effective in most depression but is for a short while in psychotic depression – and these are reputable sources obviusly different from Mz Tracy’s.
So Mz Tracy tries to give the impression of quoting science but does not engage in scientific debate by providing references and critiquing the sources.
I may take the route of being direct and tantamount to being rude to see if I can be bounced from these blogs as that may help me do more constructive things with my time.
Perhaps talking about what I know of Mz Tracy’s personal history and relating that to how bipolar can develop and how I have read about it developing in people with similar life histories might help?
The only thing that has helped here is drugs, drugs and more drugs. Psychodynamic therapy was a big waste and possibly harmful and I think Prof Kevin M Macdonald is on to something regarding it.
If one needs to talk with someone it’s better without someone shitting in ones head.
In these debates I feel that a balanced perspective is needed; in this I like Natasha’s original article. It fights against over-generalisations and wild sweeping statements that are detrimental to people with mental illness, while conceding the point that psychiatry is far from perfect.
My own perspective, which has been formed from both sides of the patient/practitioner fence, might offer some useful insights to marry the two perspectives of psychiatry and anti-psychiatry ever so slightly.
Psychiatrists have many skills and tools to offer the mentally ill. However, what our society generally does to mentally ill people is to exclude and shun them and expect the psychiatrists to deal with the problem. Psychiatrists have come up with the best compromise possible and it is improving all of the time. I faced this problem as a speech therapist visiting schools. Each school kept a list of about 80 to 100 students in need of help with communication and I visited the schools anywhere from between 2 to 8 times in a school term. It doesn’t take a degree in mathematics to work out that the numbers simply don’t add up for me ‘curing’ these children. I had to work WITH these schools so that the entire school community would also take on the responsibility for the needs of their students. I still crammed in as much therapy as possible but I managed to convince the schools to allocate resources on behalf of these students and allow me to implement school-based language and literacy programs. What I learned from this were two things: 1. sticking a label on people and shoving them off to the professional is not a realistic solution. and 2. A lot can be achieved when the community cooperates with the professional.
I feel that just because psychiatry is not working as well as it should is no reason to blame the psychiatrist. Could there be another solution here? Maybe we should be asking the following questions:
1. whose problem is mental illness anyway?
2. What resources are available and how can we best use them effectively?
Hi Sarah,
“what our society generally does to mentally ill people is to exclude and shun them and expect the psychiatrists to deal with the problem. Psychiatrists have come up with the best compromise possible and it is improving all of the time.”
You make a good point. We know that community and a support network is critical in mental wellness and yet it is one of the hardest things for people with a severe mental illness to get, and psychiatrists can just make one up for an individual. Psychiatrists use the tools they have even if those tools are wildly imperfect. It certainly does sound like what you faced as a speech therapist.
“I feel that just because psychiatry is not working as well as it should is no reason to blame the psychiatrist. Could there be another solution here? Maybe we should be asking the following questions:
1. whose problem is mental illness anyway?
2. What resources are available and how can we best use them effectively?”
Interesting questions. Enlightened, I might suggest.
1. I think there’s an issue in asking “whose problem is mental illness” because it isn’t like in a school where there is a built-in network. An individual doesn’t necessarily have that. One of the things that so many people fail to recognize is that people with a mental illness often have _no_one_ or close to no one to lean on and so the mental illness is the individual’s problem and their problem alone. I would love it if this weren’t the case, if we all had family and friends that could help us, but unfortunately, we just don’t.
2. Another good question. I encourage people to seek out therapy, always, when they are undergoing psychiatric treatment. This isn’t always an option for people, but I do think it’s best, if possible. That being said, there are other services that are offered through community organizations and faith groups that can also be helpful to people and sometimes these are underutilized by people. They are a way of grown a support network even if you start with none. (Not that these services are right for everyone, but for many they can be useful.) And of course there are many other services that people with a severe mental illness also use like disability, government programs and the like. But, at least in Canada, people are often given a case worker to deal with those programs.
Good questions. Thanks for your comment.
– Natasha Tracy
“Enlightened”
Well that’s a great compliment thanks! I should add that I had a lot of help coming up with ways to manage my caseload from others who had been there before. I was taught to think differently about social problems at uni. As a new graduate I had a network of support to guide me in the right direction. The rest was a matter of hard work.
Some tangential thoughts… Although I’m quite smart, I’m certainly not a genius! (although when I was manic, I certainly deluded myself into thinking so. I decided, during my mania/psychosis, to book myself into a caravan park to live among the people with problems and help them. Not a bad idea but I really failed in the planning department, in terms of finances, my personal safety, and any real method of ‘helping the people’. And they say that people with delusions are dangerous! About as dangerous as a Cavalier King Charles Spaniel)
About psychiatrists and anti-psychiatry. There may be some dodgy people in the industry. There are dodgy people everywhere, ready to take advantage of any opportunity to feel powerful. But the majority of psychiatrists, therapists and other professionals in the mental health field are hard-working, dedicated and caring individuals who commit their whole lives to helping others. They give up so much in terms of opportunities-they are smart enough to earn themselves millions easily, yet go through 12 years of training with very little luxury. The job is incredibly high pressure and has enormous ethical responsibility. Burn-out is high and often personal sacrifices are made for the career. A consultant’s salary might be attractive, but it’s pittance compared to the CEO of the bank. The work itself can be quite challenging and often it’s heartbreaking. Psychiatrists are not given any where near the credit they deserve. As a speech therapist my little clients often made me cards and the parent might get me some chocolates, in appreciation of fixing one little speech error. Not to compare, but psychiatrists have a much harder job, their patients aren’t always pleasant or cute and they’re not in the state of mind to provide much appreciation. psychiatrists are on the receiving end of stigma by association. To see psychiatrists then, be abused so publically for what they do, which is try the best they can to help people in need, in my opinion is a crime. By all means, provide rational critique of the current methods. Lay open aspects which are abused and have the potential for abuse. But please, please, give the wonderful hard working people the credit they deserve. Me, my family, my husband, my friends, my community, owe my life to psychiatry. I may have tardive dyskinesia, bowel problems, and feel constantly thirsty. But I have my life nd my appreciation of life back and that, above all, is what counts. I might even get back to practicing in my profession one day.
Anyway I have already taken up too much space here – but thanks for listening.
Hi Sarah,
“But the majority of psychiatrists, therapists and other professionals in the mental health field are hard-working, dedicated and caring individuals who commit their whole lives to helping others.”
Yes, this is what I always say but people seem to have a hard time believing. And yes burn-out is high and there is actually an alarming rate of suicide among doctors (all specialities).
“As a speech therapist my little clients often made me cards and the parent might get me some chocolates, in appreciation of fixing one little speech error. Not to compare, but psychiatrists have a much harder job, their patients aren’t always pleasant or cute and they’re not in the state of mind to provide much appreciation.”
That’s true. I try to very consciously thank mine for his hard work because I agree with you, I suspect they don’t get it often enough.
To see psychiatrists then, be abused so publically for what they do, which is try the best they can to help people in need, in my opinion is a crime.”
I don’t know about a crime but it does tick me right off. And abuse is what it is too. Not a critique, not rational concern, but abuse.
“I may have tardive dyskinesia, bowel problems, and feel constantly thirsty. But I have my life and my appreciation of life back and that, above all, is what counts.”
And I do think that is the point. There are things we give up to be treated by psychiatry, but the question is, is the risk or price worth the reward, and for most of us, the answer is yes. We came from such bad places that we would give a lot just to be normal and until you have been in so much pain, it’s difficult to know what that’s like.
– Natasha Tracy
Psychiatrists made the illness ME disappear (magical medicine as one doctor called it) and replaced it with the man made construct CFS, a psychiatric label. Sectioning children and adults with ME. How shameful and stupid they are! They should live in reality. Even a 10 yr old could recognise when a person is severely ill!
John Hogget hit the nail on the head. They also lie about dependence and tolerance. Tolerance was brought to light on the internet and was called “poop out”. Paxil has paid out up to a billion dollars in settlements and cases to date, this was obviously not from being honest or forthcoming with side effects.
They definitly lie about treatment. SSRIs are no better than a sugar pill except for most severely depressed.
They lie about severity of withdrawal, as in my case 126 days prozac free after a decade, and symptoms such as tinnitus, mood swings, agitation etc not improving yet.
“Science is lying This, again, is one of the dumber arguments made by antipsychiatry” Is it dumb to suggest they lied about benzo addiction in the 60s to mid 80s. Is it dumb to suggest they tried for a long time to pass of the chemical imbalance theory of depression as fact.
“Do you know the most common medication for bipolar? Lithium. Know who makes money from lithium? Not really anyone because lithium is an old drug with multiple generics available. It is cheap and from a drug company perspective, no one cares about it.”
Again your argument is flawed. Atypical antipsychotics are now pushed for bipolar.In 1993, the US FDA approved gabapentin, marketed by Pfizer under the name “Neurontin”, only for treatment of seizures. Pfizer subsidiary Warner-Lambert used activities not usually associated with sales promotion, including continuing medical education and research, to promote gabapentin, so that within 5 years the drug was being widely used for the off-label treatment of pain and psychiatric conditions. In 2004, Warner-Lambert admitted to charges that it violated FDA regulations by promoting the drug for pain, psychiatric conditions, migraine, and other unapproved uses.[13] The company paid $430 million to the federal government to settle the case.[14].(wikepedia) I suppose psychiatrists were not involved in perpetuating this deceipt, and prescribed off label because it was in their patients interest.
Your fervent unwavering defence of psychiatry is odd in light of evidence and many of your arguments lack substance, and are more based on faith than reasoning. You state many things matter of factly, but are easy to disprove. I imagine no matter how much evidence i put forward you cannot be swayed, hence i will stop here.
Ben,
There are many instances where science, including medicine, is wrong, but that is not the same thing as lying.
Atypical antipsychotics are absolutely used in the treatment of bipolar disorder. However, the primary medication is:
1. Lithium or valproic acid, depending on the doctor (both generic)
2. Tegretol (again generic)
3. Antipsychotics
There is no doubt that antipsychotic agents are now common in many disorders, but that doesn’t mean that they are the first choice nor does it mean that there is some great conspiracy.
– Natasha Tracy
Not a conspiracy!. Not sure what you took from the 430 million dollar settlement. I show actual evidence of a conspiracy to mislead and make money from gabapentin illegally.
Talk about seeing everything through rose-coloured glasses.
Gosh, there is so much in this article that is misleading and either not at all what my experience is.
For a start there are some excellent psychiatrists who think there is no biological evidence of mental illness, and some who do not like to use the term mental illness. Some of these campaign against diagnosis and are against the use of medication except in a crisis for a short time. A good place to start if you are interested in this is the Critical Psychiatry Network http://www.criticalpsychiatry.co.uk/ a UK based organisation. So they are psychiatrists who are employed by the NHS – ie the state. So their views may be in the minority but they are well respected enough to be employed and successfully treat people and get paid for it.
Another good source is Robert Whittaker’s book Anatomy of an Epidemic in which he researches the science behind the treatments, looks at long term outcomes and other evidence including a good account of the history of drug companies influence on psychiatry.
Surprisingly he has evidence that outcomes for bipolar were better before medication was invented (most people recovering within 5 years – a horrible experience but not a long term condition, unlike now). He is not anti-psychiatry but wants to see a whole different way of helping people who are mentally distressed.
And awful lot of people have been lied to by psychiatrists, they use the line, “The drugs are like insulin for diabetes,” and, “Every time you have a breakdown you will loose some of your intelligence.” These are lies or distortions of outcome experiments where there is a bias to drug treatment. Also most mainstream psychiatrist ignore a lot of science looking into the causes of mental distress and say that no one knows the causes of so called schizophrenia and bipolar disorder when it is known that there are high correlations between surviving childhood sexual assault, family violence, racism, homophobia, poverty and other traumas and all forms of mental distress. Richard Bentall is a UK psychologist who has resarched extensively in this area http://www.thepsychologist.org.uk/archive/archive_home.cfm?volumeID=24&editionID=199&ArticleID=1836
So the views you say are anti-psychiatry are in fact held by some psychiatrists and other mental health care professionals and are based in some well researched opinions where as your article seems to say people who hold them are crackpots and extremists I want people who are severely mentally distressed to be able to get competent help that the state pays for but I don’t want the current drug based, medical paradigm as I think it does harm and often does not help. I think my views are based on science. This is a problems because it is so contrary to most psychiatric systems in the world. I guess this can only lead to polarised views, but I ask you to consider the counter evidence to your article
My experience with psychiatry and psychiatric medication has not been a good one. I was unfortunate enough to constantly experience the side effect of increased suicidal ideation (resulting in a suicide attempt) which ceased once I stopped taking medication. This caused me to leave psychiatry.
Everyone needs to do what they feel is best for them. I have friends who have been helped by psychiatry and friends who have been horribly let down. One thing I’m trying to do in a new blog I’m writing is show the many different perspectives towards psychiatry and mental illness, especially the views of the consumers. I wish this blog had done something similar because, as someone breaking into the anti psychiatry movement, I have learned it is a movement made up of many different types of peoples ranging from those who believe in psychiatry and those who do not. The main issue they all have in common is believing that there is a power imbalance within psychiatry that needs to be broken and that there should be more treatment options available (peer support groups were one response to this).
We need to remember that our experiences and perspectives are unique to us and that no ones experience is invalid just because it doesn’t match our own. If your experience has been great then I’m happy for you but you should not push others into the boxes of “irrational” because they believe there is another side to psychiatry. I’m very positive that they, like myself, experienced something to make them rethink their initial. We should always make our own decisions, do research and not blindly trust.
At risk of being called a ‘cheerleader’, I have to agree with Natasha. As usual she has articulated these thoughts in a much better way than I could so I won’t really say much more other than reiterating that there are flaws in the system as there are every system but I am quite sure that the average psychiatrist is not there for pure greed and to harm patients. Most likely they have an interest in mental illness and health and want to help people who have issues is such areas.
Hi Bec,
You are welcome along side me pompom-less and rational.
– Natasha Tracy
Hey, Great. Thanks for that lead MMC. I may submit a paper then on the “town nurse” or local based heirarchy system for health and human service management. I really shouldn’t be blasting them to bits, just going in, like a blathering, raving lunatic, though.
Natasha, I am sure the quote above, which is mine: [moderated] will be confused with your own fictional quote: “I hate shrinks. (Shrinks should die.) Shrinks are evil.”
However it is a certainty, since you have the moderators power to delete parts of a post … that your own quote inserted into my recent quote, will be mis-understood to be my own. I would ask you to please clarify that it is not. I have never said: “Shrinks should die.” Nor have I felt that way. I may be a bit vitriolic on the topic, but I am civilized. Please, Please, Please delete that from your own post as well.
Hi Steven,
I thought it was clear in the article as I said it was from commenterS. However, at your request I have added the line “not an individual” and responded via comment on the post and on Facebook.
Plus, you know, my blogs are hardly the only ones in the world, such comments are made all over the web by all sorts of people.
The post isn’t about you, you just spawned a thought, which happens all the time. I often write inspired by things people have said that either shows up on the blog and some stuff I moderate out.
Again, I’m sorry if you felt I was trying to quote or misquote you as neither was the case.
– Natasha
Hey Steven–I actually agree that the $30 fee may be a barrier for people to join SPM which may show up in certain lack of diversity–for ex. haven’t noticed any medical students in the group at all. It’s good that they have scholarships though. “E-patients” are very much at the center of the organization; most of the blog posts are written by “e-patient Dave” who speaks at conferences frequently on patient rights. There was recently a special call for papers on mental health for their journal at http://sites.google.com/site/mentalhealthcfp/ which I think they will still accept papers for since the journal is published on a continuous basis online. I don’t know that there are many psychiatrists or nurses involved with the group, but certainly if you know of any that might be interested spread the word. Nurses sometimes get left out of the healthcare change conversation even by other health professionals so it is good to remember them.
Steven,
“Yes, Sorry, I’m too intense, and too critical.”
Yes, because I’m _never_ like that ;)
I do think it clouds judgement; however, I do respect your passion. I am a passionate person myself.
“Keep up the good work.”
I shall try.
– Natasha Tracy
Yes, Sorry, I’m too intense, and too critical. Keep up the good work.
Thanks for the link to the “society” for participitory medicine. I looked around a bit, and some of it is pretty good. The section over a year and a half old, about peer reviews, looked good, but it’s aparently a dead issue on this site. Again, do doctors police themselves? No. But isn’t it oxymoronic for a minority of doctors who say they believe in participation to charge a thirty dollar a year fee to do so on a list serve? I think it’s symptomatic of doctors. They don’t like discussions. They abhore discussions about how they can improve their system of care, yes, it’s possissive and it’s not our system it is their own. The site is in a dying phase, because there is no real participation at thirty dollars a throw for the poor, who aren’t too likely to jump thru hoops for a free chance to get involved. These doctors are smart like foxes. It’s the ultimate in specious logic from an industry and institutions that are living donosaurs. But I will apply to the cumbersome “scholarship” process, and see if there is anything to it. That they have this “society” to cover the eventual criticisms that they aren’t sincere in their attempts to work with patients, is cute. That you think it’s real? Well.
There was very little going on there. Few posts, Few articles to comment on. But at least they can SAY they’re trying to connect. That’t the important thing. They can SAY they’re sincere about making THEIR system better. [moderated] Have a nice day.
Steven,
It’s amazing, even people who embrace change aren’t “good enough” for you. This suggests that you have no interest in positive change and only in living in ranting and complaining.
Just for the record:
– SPM is a charity. They have to charge membership dues in order to exist.
– Their blog is very active with 12 posts in April alone – all of which anyone can comment on
– Their journal is also very active with opinion and evidence-based pieces all of which anyone can comment on
– Their listserv is very active sometimes with 10 emails a day
You think that’s dieing? Well, that’s your prerogative. Please, don’t join the “dieing” group. We don’t need the negative, illogical rantings.
– Natasha Tracy
Psychiatrists have certainly done more than their fair share of screwing up over the years. Yes, I rant, but so do you. Your piece was a rant against those who don’t share your own love and adoration for the shrinks. How many people are being hurt today, due to our deference to them? I think many many disabled people are suffering with low quality lives, zombied out of their minds, the creme of the budget gone to the heirarchy, then they die young. Who do you think we’re caring for here? The shrinks and their teams, or the disabled? These are my friends, who I am close to. Most often the mental patients own family will side with the shrink, to zombify the patient.
I’m not speaking for you: Your claim that without the shrinks you would not be alive is testament to your own servility. Objective, no. But reasonable that you should worship them, of course. Well, in five years I hope we both have been able to make a difference: you in your own pro establishment way, and me on the cutting edge of reform.
According to Steven, Natasha’s claim that without shrinks (and presumably psychotropic medications) she would not still be alive is “a testament to her own servility” and evidence of her shrink-worship.
I just finished up chemotherapy for cancer a year ago and I believe that without those meds I might not still be alive. However, I do not worship my doctors and if I am “servile” to them I count it to my gain.
I don’t understand how this is viewed as different. (Well, I do understand. I have type II bipolar and have family members who think it’s all in my head. And, well, it is all in my head–that’s the point, isn’t it.)
Hi Jenn,
An excellent point well made.
We, the mentally ill, are looked down on, our treatments are looked down on in a way that other diseases aren’t. Simply _getting_ treatment seems to be some sort of crime. It’s a double-standard. As you say, chemotherapy saves people’s lives and no one considers that there’s anything wrong for those people having had that treatment, nor do they accuse those patients as being cheerleading slaves. And this is in spite of the fact that chemotherapy also _kills_ people.
(Cheerleading slaves. Think I saw that in a music video once.)
Thanks for your comment.
– Natasha Tracy
Steven,
I wouldn’t recommend speaking for me nor intuiting my expectations.
Cheerleaders? Not really. The internet is nothing if not antiestablishment and disgruntled.
Scrutiny? I have no problem with scrutiny I simply refuse to parrot the meme that psychiatrists are inherently evil, and it seems that anything less than this statement is taken by people to mean I think they’re perfect. They’re not. Medicine is not. I say this all day long.
Has psychiatry been wrong? Well, yes, of course it has. And I’m sure there are things wrong now. I say that all day long too. All of medicine is full of what we now consider atrocities – when we know better, we do better.
Again, I am not in “happy land.” I am more critical than most about psych treatments. But again, anything less than utter condemnation is _unacceptable_ by people such as yourself.
You want a system of elected nurses? Feel free. Let me know how that goes for you. But in five years I will have made a positive change for many and you’ll be ranting behind a computer screen.
– Natasha Tracy
Natasha, You were the one who put all these anti-psychiatry positions up for discussion. I’m glad you did that. But I think you expected a pro-shrink cheerleading squad to show up, and besides you I haven’t seen many gushing fawning complementary posts in favor of psychiatrists being wonderful. From my experience, being full time in the system for ten years, many mental patients are “staff centered” meaning because they are so dependent they line up on things in general with their superiors. I think we owe our disabled people more than deference to doctors. We need real change. After all remember the labotomy? Remember homosexuality as a sickness? All the suffering and persecution over the years, caused by psychiatrists, indicates more scrutiny than you feel comfortable with for these people. You can’t face the fact that many are being poisoned and dying young, that kids are being roped into an industry for it’s own purposes, and then their lives shattered to bits, and the fact that bad shrinks operate under protections, with immunity from even being criticised. People are afraid. But you are in happy land.
I do think a system that I touched on, town nurse based, would be better, and very realistic. But it is new, and you like the current system just fine. The money wasted now is not wasted on the disabled but in the heirarchy above the disabled. People can see this. You owe your caregivers much, and that’s good, and you are a fine activist for a better understanding of mental illness. But systems for these services;, might be a good area for you to put on the table, from time to time. Thanks, and keep up the good work. A topic may be: ” Does the psyche industry police it’s own?”
It may be more an “us” thing than a “them” thing. Citizens do have the power and authority to change systems, that of course I think need to be changed, but who am I ? I’m not a doctor. I’m a welfare bum, and a mental patient, and a researcher. We need good systems work done here. People trust these fool shrinks, and often they are worshiped by the patients. We don’t bite the hand that feeds us after all. I have a town nurse based system that would work better for the poor and the disabled. Locally people would be elected and they would have broad scope to run the show. The money would be thrown into the bucket and between the local citizens, charities, clients etc. ,poor etc, democrocy: let it work: or suffer the consequences of the little fifedoms. Really, what could be better for people helping people than local control. Then we’d see these castles of illgotten wealth crumble. Usefull to the team of local “town nurses” would be the doctors of psychiatry, not elected like the nurses, but there to help, under the direction of the elected “nurses”. Let the natural born caregivers show us what they can do.
[moderated] They don’t police their own. That means they are ok with evil done by other doctors ie: “not my job.” And that is plenty reason enough to hate them. Some are good and competent. I do believe in all manner of causes of mental illness, chemical, biological, emotional damage, bad luck, all sorts of causes, always have of course. Many meds are life savers, too many are not. I’ve never had them thanks. Disabled people of all kinds often have a really great life. When we have each other, we are family. Off topic? sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry…. snippy.
Hmmm, not “on” topic, but not “off” either. S’OK by me.
I look at things a bit differently. While your way might have some good ideas, they aren’t very realistic. My personal philosophy is to work for education and change within existing structures because, well, I just think that’s more helpful.
I don’t necessarily agree with everything they do, but the Society of Participatory Medicine, I think, is working to make change in giving patients more control over their own health care: http://participatorymedicine.org/ I see the participation of many doctors in this group who want the same positive changes as patients do.
You can hate shrinks, that’s fine, but in my experience everyone is an individual and can’t be painted with one brush, good or bad. I’ve seen really bad psychiatrists and I’ve seen good ones. Same with general doctors. Same with therapists. Same with mechanics. Same with everyone.
And for me, I have to work with psychiatrists in order to be a functional human being and sitting in the dark hating them isn’t a great way for me to do that.
– Natasha Tracy
I admit I have not read much in detail regarding the claims of anti-psychiatry. Tom Cruise’s interview is the most I have read/seen regarding what they say, but if this is their claim, then they obviously are more confused/lost/ignorant than I realized. I mean making money off of insanity is the most insane thing I have heard. First off majority of mentally ill patients are unable to hold jobs and often live below the poverty line so why would people think they can “get rich” off people who have no money? Just absolute rubbish. What is sad is that people will fall for the rubbish these people are spewing because people would prefer to believe their doctor is “evil’ before they believe their loved one is “ill”.
Hi Maasiyat,
Antipsychiatry is mostly a problem online, saving the egregious example of Tom Cruise.
Yes, the money thing is a red herring that antipsychiatry groups always want to throw out, but again, has no basis in fact. The article I talk about here addresses the money issue directly: https://natashatracy.com/mental-illness-issues/doctors/psychiatric-myths-dispelled-doctor-fighting-antipsychiatry/
“What is sad is that people will fall for the rubbish these people are spewing because people would prefer to believe their doctor is “evil’ before they believe their loved one is “ill”.”
Yup. I think you hit it on the head there.
– Natasha Tracy
I wouldn’t say that’s a very accurate characterization of anti-psychiatry. Maybe more of the trolls that harass you. There’s an academic strain with people like Thomas Szasz and Foucault. Maybe the modern equivalent is Peter Breggin though even more “mainstream” doctors like David Healy and Joseph Glenmullen critique the use of anti-depressants based on their interpretation of the evidence. I think the McGill psychiatry dept deals more with the trauma-based model that someone mentioned.
There’s also patients from the “bad old days” with more abuses of electroshock and such, that are upset it happened to them. Maybe that’s in the past as are some of the ethics abuses you mentioned with pharma which are more recent, but if noone had gotten upset about them, then would they have been addressed at all? A psychiatrist who gave a talk with med and nursing students the other day readily admitted the system was broken and how the system could potentially cause trauma to its patients–it was not clear if changes would be possible from within.
Hi MMC,
It’s accurate of the groups and sentiments I come across. It boils down to these thingsL
1. Mental illness doesn’t exist or mental illness isn’t a biological illness
2. Psychotropic drugs should not be taken
3. Psychiatrists are not to be trusted
Each person feels more or less strongly about each point, but that’s what it boils down to. Simply questioning psychiatry _isn’t_ antipsychiatry. You cross that line when you get to, say, two of the above three.
“There’s also patients from the “bad old days” with more abuses of electroshock and such, that are upset it happened to them. ”
There are definitely a small number of vocal people who fall into this category. I would never stand for psychiatric abuse and abuse of any kind should be prosecuted, but like I’ve said over and over, one person’s experience can’t be generalized to a field/treatment as a whole.
I agree, the system need improvement, all of medicine does, and yes, you’re right, many doctors know and acknowledge this. Many doctors are trying to make things better. I think this is an example of their lack of evil, but that’s me. (You didn’t say that, I’m just saying…)
– Natasha Tracy
Let’s consider that the problem of “expensive negligent performance” with these doctors of psychiatry is that of a “Non-Teamwork” nature primarily. Teams have a way of self tending while individuals do tend to their own often misdirected paths. And also, psychiatry is a new field of medicine which was stolen from charity services of yesteryear. There’s just too much quaking in fear of these people, who weild such power over me an my friends. And the nature of human services is people helping people, some rules, some allowing risk and consequential failures, and trial and error, etc. The patient goes into the “doctors” office and there he or she is sized up a bit quickly, and medications get proscribed, programs rationalized etc. That’s a real problem. Human services to be effective, efficient and efficacious, most often requires a team approach. I believe in the psychiatrist being only but a part of a team only, and not entertaining his or her own delusions of grandeur in the thinking that a patients case can be handled in fifteen minutes, with just a doctor to patient relationship. Any horizontal relationships among professionals are now, from my own perspective, a joke, and verboten are peer to peer contributions, in spite of many with mental illness being highly experienced and qualified, educated, and with histories, successful histories of helping, making very positive contributions, being in very good stead etc. The nature of mental illness is that it is most often complex and individualized. it is often partnered with dual or multiples of self discipline problems, addictions, cognitive problems, family problems, physical maladies, and especially deep seated shame based issues.
The cause of these problems of the non-teamwork nature are most profoundly to me skewed or bureaucratic system approaches, in our societal services systems in general. Bureaucrats must have their square boxes. My own fields of endeavor are fisheries, aquaculture, energy systems, boat building, and gardening, and caregiving and politics. Except for my caregiving most of my work entails lots of settled science and proven ways. Much in law and politics has been settled after centuries of trial and error and teamwork. Future psyche system design parameters need to find what works, not doctor worship, and then build on the best foundations. Clubhouse (ICCD) works, teamwork works, but isolated ivory tower tin gods don’t fit with the job at hand. Helping people in isolation, and at the top of the food chain no less, is truely an oxymoron of the highest calliber. Many of the same issues in the psyche field crop up in justice related industries, but far less so. And, there is a dissimilarity wouldn’t we all agree, with looking at straight medical-physical broken leg type problems and then the more grey psyche problems. Families often shatter when the psyche issue is put on their plates, but conversely will rally to bone cancer or a broken back. The fact is diagnoses are often better left unspoken, hence the hate I think. Often these are silly stretches of one doctors imagination, or worse a need to keep one’s own job and one’s status: and this is closer to the mark I’m sure. Better off we would be, as societies, if the doctor wrote a note and said a person was down on his luck, or seemed somehow to be suffering some spiritual disability that will always be a mystery. Or, simply RX: give this person a hand and see what you can do.
Hi Steven,
You’ll get no argument from me on the team approach. I think it’s a good idea. Getting rid of god complexes, I think it’s a good idea. (Try the Society for Participatory Medicine.)
“The fact is diagnoses are often better left unspoken, hence the hate I think.”
I disagree strongly. That viewpoint destroys families and can end lives.
None of what you’ve said addresses the article, but OK.
People have a problem with psychiatry and there are many improvements that can be made in psychiatry and all of medicine. And in spite of the rhetoric online, many professionals are working to make that change happen. https://natashatracy.com/mental-illness-issues/doctors/psychiatric-myths-dispelled-doctor-fighting-antipsychiatry/
The issue at hand, however, is the blatant unacceptabnce of mental illness and mental illness treatment. Could things be better? Yes. They could. But that doesn’t change the existence of mental illness nor the benefit of treatment. https://natashatracy.com/mental-illness/depression/neurobiology-depression-%e2%80%93-depression-brain/
– Natasha Tracy
I’m coming from several cultural situations.
1. I was brought up by two fine WWII generation parents, both pillars of the community, and I think very good genes. Dad was a very respected business man and an “activist” my words for him not his. He was chairman of many committees and a real leader. My mother was the town nurse in Harwich, and we incorporated our family with mom’s patients. She was adored for her work. I had the very best growing up. I had the very, very, best. I was trained by them to reject un-professional behaviors, and to reject “what was wrong”.
2. As a fisherman, I was in an industry starting from a young age, 14, where any lackluster performance was answered by not being allowed back for another trip. I always made that cut, was always welcome, and in fact had to dismiss many deck hands who could not do the work, or who were unsafe. Safety in the commercial fishing trade was a complex of good gear and good seamanship and especially smarts and level headedness.
3. As an activist myself I am intensely sensitive to due process. I don’t like dictators. I hate confused people in positions of leadership, who have an I’m God mentality. I can’t stand un-transparent situations where democracy and light should better work to keep order. I am a very very hard worker and I just do despise laziness and sloth, whether in my own trade or in the psyche industry, which is one of the most unguarded and un-disciplined and disordered industries that anyone could ever hope to find.
4. Through my political life, in particular thru a fisherman’s political fight with the State of Massachusetts, I was declared insane, which was a low blow, and beyond rude. I’m not mentally ill, and have had no history, but I’m certainly diagnosed with many axis one disorders. This is why I in particular have anti-psychiatrist feelings. These people in this industry don’t seem to want to self police. They get a lot of deference and respect which they do not deserve, and this industry certainly should be quality controlled and down sized.
This blog is satirical, right?
The impetus behind the use of the word anti-psychiatry, as it is used today, chiefly sprang from it’s use by a psychiatrist, David Cooper. I have heard people describe themselves as anti-psychiatry activists, but I don’t think the term ever took on the kind of general application that some people would like to apply to it. I’m not going to knock a person for referring to him or herself as anti-psychiatry as such if that is that person’s preference. The problem is that many of the people that might be associated with the anti-psychiatry movement would have no such association with the anti-psychiatry movement made. I think we must honor those folks wishes as well.
The effect of neuroleptic drugs produce was first referred to as a “chemical lobotomy” by psychiatrists who found that they worked as well at containing disruptive behavior as brain surgery. This usage was not developed by people in any anti-psychiatry movement. Critics of biological medical model psychiatry have pointed this matter out. Neuroleptic drugs have also been referred to as “chemical straitjackets” and “chemical restraints”. Some people refer to neuroleptic drugs as “anti-psychotic” drugs, but this is actually a misnomer. In the orgininal latin, a neuroleptic drug is a drug that siezes control of the nervous system.
Biological medical model psychiatry has not proven itself to be very efficient at recovering people from disability. There are other approaches to psychiatry besides that of biological medical model psychiatry. Freud’s psychoanalytic approach, for instance, is one such other approach. There are all sorts of experimental and holistic approaches that should not be thrown out with the dishwater so to speak either.
I don’t think it fair to categorize all critics of biological medical model psychiatry as members of this anti-psychiatry movement. Biological medical model psychiatry has critics within itself and outside itself. I happen to think highly of critical thinking, and I wouldn’t sacrifise such thinking for any comfortable illusion.
Frank Blankenship
Hi Frank,
Well, again, that’s why I defined the word “antipsychiatry,” as many people use the word to mean different things.
“Neuroleptic drugs have also been referred to as “chemical straitjackets” and “chemical restraints”.”
Some medication could be characterized this way if used _in_this_fashion_. Certainly my medication couldn’t reasonably be called that and for antipsychiatry people (another person) to tell me I’ve had a “chemical lobotomy” is absurd.
“Freud’s psychoanalytic approach, for instance, is one such other approach. There are all sorts of experimental and holistic approaches that should not be thrown out with the dishwater so to speak either.”
Psychologists have moved beyond Freud decades ago. Yes, interpersonal therapy is done. I’ve done lots of it. Other types of therapy is done as well. I’ve done those too. Sure, there are other non-medication approaches, I’ve tried many.
Just because I think antipsychiatry (as defined above) is ludicrous doesn’t mean I don’t find value in other approaches.
“I don’t think it fair to categorize all critics of biological medical model psychiatry as members of this anti-psychiatry movement.”
That’s not what I did.
“I happen to think highly of critical thinking, and I wouldn’t sacrifise such thinking for any comfortable illusion.”
I’m a more critical thinker than anyone I know and I happen to value that as well. I’d say suggesting all psychiatry is wrong and science is lying is an example of a comfortable illusion.
– Natasha Tracy
I don’t think people are antipsychiatry. I think they are just against the unethical and skeptical practices used by psychiatrists. For instance a psychiatrist has a Medical Degree and prescribes chemotherapy to patients. Yet when was the last time a psychiatrist took your vital signs or weight when you went to visit. When was the last time the psychiatrist referred you to a neurologist or neuropsychologist, OBGYN, etc….? When was the last time a psychiatrist ruled out everything physical or organic before prescribing medication?
Do you know that doctors used to endorse cigarettes?
Show me a person with a “mental illness” and I will find the traumatic experience or poor nurtuing of the spirit during childhood. Drug addicts have the same thing….poor nurturing as a child or traumatic experience. Psychiatrists say this is a chemical imbalance, yet have no tests to prove it. Some called ‘mentally ill’ are in fact gifted with a mystical phenonemon that cannot be explained through science.
Can I ask you a few personal questions?
What happened to you as a child?
Are you psychic or psycho?
Have you found the medication or treatment that makes you happy?
Thanks.
Peace and God Bless, Tricia DiMenti
Hi Tricia,
Well, you may not feel the way antipsychiatry as described above, but people certainly do. Everything I’ve mentioned, and considerably worse, comes from the commenters.
Psychiatrists are specialists, they don’t generally handle things outside mental illness much like oncologists don’t handle things outside cancer.
And since you asked, my psychiatrist occasionally checks my vitals and recently recommended I see an opthamologist (psychiatrists don’t do referrals here, your GP does, and did). And as for ruling out of organic illness, that has been done a bunch of times with a bunch of tests.
You are incorrect that there is no evidence or tests for mental illness. Please see: https://natashatracy.com/mental-illness/depression/neurobiology-depression-%e2%80%93-depression-brain/
– Natasha Tracy
What was the traumatic experience you went through as a child?
Or as an adult?
How many years and meds has it taken to stabilize you?
You are one of the rare patients who has a psychiatrist who checks your vital signs and has looked for everything organic.
Peace and God Bless, Tricia
Tricia,
You have been found attempting to post under multiple aliases, violating the rules for commenting here:
https://natashatracy.com/bipolar-burble-blog-commenting-rule/
You are no longer welcome to comment here.
– Natasha
Huh? Tricia, my psychiatrist’s nurse takes my vitals–weight and blood pressure, at least–every visit. He orders regular blood tests to check whatever the heck it is they check–liver and kidney function I think. Every few years he has my thyroid checked. He referred me out to my OB/GYN to see if some symptoms were due to hormonal changes from menopause onset to see if there was an underlying issue before automatically thinking psych issue.
If my psychiatrist didn’t do these perfectly *normal* medical things, I’d get myself another doctor. This is just what doctors *do*. My pdoc keeps track of the other meds I’m taking, just like my primary care doctor keeps my psych meds listed on my chart in *her* office.
And when I had something happen to me that caused PTSD, I didn’t expect a pill to “fix it.” I did get help from my pdoc with anti-anxiety, but that was in coordination with my therapist and a skills-based, multi-purpose group program adapted from DBT.
Working with my therapist and the skills training groups helped with the PTSD. The skills also have helped me better manage some of the challenges that come with my bipolar disorder. But there’s no way I could endure the pain of Bipolar II Disorder without the meds–and there’s no reason on the gods’ green earth that I should have to!
When someone tells me I shouldn’t be able to have anti-depressants from my psychiatrist, what they’re really telling me is if I fell off a cliff and had a compound leg fracture they’d sit there and tell me they knew what was best for me and that drugs were baaaaaaad instead of giving me dang shot of morphine.
I’ve got a compound fracture of the morale. It’s excruciating. It’s not my fault, but it wouldn’t matter a damn if it was. Get out of the way between me and my pdoc and let him give me something for the fricking pain. “Help” from you anti-psychiatry do-gooders is “help” I don’t need.
Well, It’s a free country. [moderated] The whole psyche industry is sick. Putting kids through all the meds, instead of allowing them to grow up and fight their own battles, its insane. That’s empire building. Meds make people fat and stupid more so than helping, and then you die early. Hey that’s nice. Partnerships of lawyers with shrinks, that really isn’t cool. If a lawyer can’t win on merits, the lawyer should lose, not pull psyche cards. [Moderated] Thanks, nice article, the issue is real, few touch it. Peer to peer groups could do a much better job than shrinks of dispensing and adjusting meds.
Yeah? It’s sick to “put kids through all the meds”? That sure as hell helps when your previously brilliant son has lost years of math and now has discalculia because of an uncontrolled manic episode. You have no idea what kinds of hell various early onset bipolar children and their parents go through.
Years of learning lost in one manic episode, and you just *pray* that you can do enough enrichment to get the brain areas to recover enough that your child isn’t going to have a permanent learning disability in that area, or that you can help them at least outgrow as much of it as possible.
And meanwhile you’re getting *no* help from the system, because a child going through the symptoms of early onset bipolar disorder looks very much like a child experiencing abuse or neglect–the kid is not acting like a normal, happy kid without a care in the world where nothing is going on, the kid is acting like a kid with something going on. The :”something going on” isn’t that the kid is being abused or neglected, it’s that the poor kid has gotten or is getting sick.
Fortunately, with the right resources, it’s possible to communicate with the school and social services and (if necessary) the authorities so that they get a good look at what they’re seeing. When you know what to look for, the difference between a bipolar kid versus an abused or neglected kid, or a kid that’s “just” got ADHD, are pretty clear.
A kid with a major mental illness is *not* just another normal kid. I wasn’t. The other kids sure could tell I was different. They just had no idea how to react, since the adults were all busy abdicating responsibility by not coping and ignoring the problem.
My mental illness was the proverbial elephant in the living room.
I knew what it was like to have it neglected. My mother in law was early onset and she knew what it was like to have her childhood mental illness be the elephant in the living room.
I would have much preferred for my child to be healthy. However, when she got sick I didn’t bury my head in the sand and pretend it wasn’t happening. Neither did her dad. We got her care from a well-rounded team of professionals (pdoc, therapist, got her a neuropsych evaluation, had her pediatrician rule out all the usual medical suspects), and supported that care as best we could with what we could do at home.
What’s truly sick is to ignore and neglect your child when your child becomes ill, just because the illness is politically incorrect on your list of pet causes.