Recently I wrote about why people with a mental illness shouldn’t be denied access to guns. My argument is, essentially, that it is a violation of their rights to judge the mentally ill based on a medical diagnosis and, in this society, we judge people based on what they do and not their medical conditions.
Some of the commenters on this post brought up the fact that with access to weapons, a person with a mental illness may be more likely to commit suicide. For example, about half of all people with bipolar disorder attempt suicide and certainly, an attempted suicide with a gun is very likely to be a completed suicide.
However, this doesn’t change my opinion one bit. While I have written and written about suicide and suicide attempts and I have said that, as a society, we should aim for zero suicides, that does not mean that we should violate people’s rights to do it.
People Can Kill Themselves with a Thumbtack
People can kill themselves with anything or with nothing at all. All it takes is stepping in front of a truck to really ruin your whole day. And while suicide with a gun may be faster and more effective than other means, certainly other means work just fine.
Moreover, while about 50% of people with bipolar disorder may attempt suicide, that means that about 50% of people with bipolar disorder do not and I do not believe in curtailing the rights of all to save the few who would choose to attempt suicide with a gun (most suicide attempts do not involve guns).
Taking Responsibility for Suicide
And when it comes down to it, we, as a society, do not run around with a net trying to stop everyone from hurting themselves. We don’t bar gambling-addicts from casinos even though the choice to enter them may destroy the gambler. We don’t take the knives from self-harmers houses even though those knives are what might help them end up in the emergency room.
We don’t take away a person’s rights unless they are an acute danger to themselves – and when they are, we invoke treatment, we do not permanently remove rights (this treatment is, of course, time-limited and rare).
I want to save lives as much, or probably more, than the next person, but I don’t believe in stomping on personal freedoms to do it. Should a person with suicidal tendencies have access to a weapon? No, I would say not, but that’s a decision he or she has to make for themselves, and not one the government gets to make for him. Treatment needs to be given to the suicidal; not further indignities such as infringements on their rights.
I firmly and respectfully disagree.
Nobody needs a gun, for starters. They do not offer you protection. They’re unsafe to keep outside of a safe; and if they’re in a safe, they’re not quickly accessible to use for “defense”. The defense argument is STUPID. PEOPLE DON’T NEED/SHOULDN’T HAVE GUNS. Americans need to lose the guns like here in Australia. NO mass shootings since we changed gun laws, and there’s nearly no gun related suicides here in Australia – unlike America where there’s countless each year.
I have tried to kill myself twice, now.
Once I took roughly a hundred pain killers. The second time pain killers mixed with alcohol which landed me in the hospital and then psych ward.
Suicide attempts generally do not work a vast majority of the time. This is a statistical fact. However, with guns, you get no second chance. PLENTY of us have survived a suicide attempt, gotten well, and gone on to lead good lives. Guns take away that possibility.
Is it hurtful to not be allowed a gun based on a mental illness? – perhaps. It’s your choice to decide on how you react to a ‘tough love’ law.
Is it a good thing to deny access? YES.
Guns and depression DO. NOT. MIX. Whether you hurt yourself or somebody else, mentally ill people should not be allowed guns.
If I had a weapon. I would not be here typing this message out right now. I would be dead.
And I am happy to be alive.
I am happy and stable on medication
BP type 2. I am somewhat ashamed of your stance on this. I guess Americans are just way too into guns to see how unnecessary they are.
Why do I want/”need” a gun? For one thing, I’m a rape survivor. Neurotypical people don’t necessarily realize it, but bipolars are at increased risk of rape. Why? Because rapists are sick MF-ing bastiges who want to get away with it. “She’s bipolar” is typically a get out of rape prosecution free card, as long as the rapist doesn’t beat you up too badly. Even if he does, “She likes it rough” is reasonable doubt if the victim is bipolar.
Why did the system believe Kobe Bryant? Because the victim was bipolar. Now whether Bryant did or didn’t do it, rapists are bad people who want to get away with it, and they will have noticed that “my accuser is bipolar and could be hypersexual” worked for Kobe.
Bipolar chicks have a reputation among sleazy guys for being a “wild ride” in bed. Not all sleazy guys are rapists, but all rapists are sleazy guys.
Society has already painted a huge target on us and removed our access to the courts for justice. Preventing us from being armed? They might as well stick a neon sign over bipolar women’s heads declaring open season.
But, you know, who cares? They’re just a bunch of crazy sluts who wanted it anyway.
You think society cares if we’re crime victims? Some of them shed a few crocodile tears, but that’s it. Remember that bipolar man who got shot by an Air Marshal because he was having a panic attack and tried to get off the plane? Society called it a “justifiable” shooting because hell, he was only a nut anyway.
The only protection people like me have got from attackers that might target us is the fear that we just might be packing.
Now, if these bald, truthful statements give neurotypical people an irrational fear of me, I’m happy to point out to them exactly why the statistics show their fear of me is irrational. If they give sicko rapists an irrational fear of me, well, I’ll take that–it might save my life someday. And–bonus–without me having to shoot an attacker.
I’m bipolar, and I own guns. I’m type II, and I’ve never had a suicide attempt. That’s because I’m a “completer” not an “attempter.” Whenever I meet a new professional, I get asked if I have a plan. I have to reply that I’ve got a dozen plans (no firm count) from back when I had a lot of suicidal feelings, thoughts, and urges.
I’m stable on meds. Other than a very fleeting, perverse thought when I’m tired or discouraged, my thoughts of suicide are as an abstract, to try to explain mood disorders to others and reduce stigma.
Why do I have about a dozen plans? Because I have an engineering turn of mind and I was petrified, back when I was more actively ill, of having a failed suicide attempt and either getting injured or locked up and “watched like a hawk so I’d never get another chance.”
So I researched methods of suicide and their relative lethality. It became a morbid hobby and worked for me a little like cutting works for a cutter. By researching means and methods of suicide, I could reassure myself I had some control over my seemingly uncontrollable life and that I did have a way out “if things got too bad.” My means of not suiciding was, “Things aren’t that bad right this minute. These catastrophes I envision haven’t happened yet. If they do, I can suicide *then*. So now I can afford to wait and just see what happens.”
I finally did reach a point of decision on suicide, where I decided that I didn’t actually want to be dead, I just wanted the godawful pain to stop. Not necessarily stop forever and for all time and I’d never hurt again, but just to basically, reliably stop for most of the time and the plausible prospect of that lack of pain continuing. Meds and treatment were able to deliver that relief from the unbearable pain, so I’m alive. When I hurt again, I know that meds and treatment have the ability to give me long spans of time that don’t hurt and that my pain will end. “This too shall pass.” I do something entirely passive (like watch a movie) and wait it out. I breathe through any panic attacks and wait them out.
You have to not understand bipolar, or seriously misunderstand bipolar, to be overly worried about someone like me having guns. What if I have an anxiety attack and panic? What if something bad happens and I have a bad moment? Aren’t most suicides impulsive in the midst of an anxiety attack? That’s the way the “concern” train of thought from others would generally go, more or less.
Yeah, well. I also live less than a mile from a bridge over a river. It’s a straight line walk. Believe me when I say if I was panicked and decided to die, done right, the bridge has less risk of accidental survival in a horridly injured state. I’m trying to avoid giving other people lethality data they haven’t gone out and found themselves.
The best reason not to use a gun for suicide is that there’s too much risk of accidentally blowing your face off (too much for my peace of mind, anyway) or otherwise ending up a live vegetable instead of death and (hoped for) oblivion. Yes, it can be “done right.” But seriously? Not gonna happen. I can think of better choices standing on my head–and I do mean standing on my head in some hypothetically irrational state of mind.
Because the “better choice” of method for stopping the pain is meds and treatment. For me and for most people.
As for the people who don’t respond to meds and treatment after they’ve tried *all* the available treatments? If they’re living in an excruciating hell and we can’t relieve their pain, we certainly have no right to demand that they live in that hell of pain just so that we, the living who remain, won’t feel bad about their deaths.
If you’re bipolar like me, and you haven’t found ways to stop the pain, I cannot urge you strongly enough to try ALL the available treatments before resorting to suicide.
As a bipolar type II, before I got effective treatment I had no idea why anybody would *want* to live. It was a complete mystery to me why other people *liked* life enough to even fight to keep it. It was obvious that they *did*, but I had no personal emotional reference for what that was like. Now that I’ve got effective treatment, I know from personal experience that it’s possible for me to truly enjoy being alive and enjoy living.
If you’re in a personal hell of pain, trust someone who’s been there and felt it too–if you can get treatment that’s effective *for you*, you can enjoy living enough to be glad you did.
If you’ve never been in that personal hell of pain, trust someone who’s been there and felt it *and* discovered the joy of living since–if your loved one has tried every available treatment and is one of the very few who doesn’t get relief (including the experimental treatments undergoing trials) and your loved one doesn’t want to hold out for “maybe they’ll discover something new in a few years”—be kind to their memory if they decide to suicide. Having an untreated, untreatable mood disorder really does hurt that bad.
But try all the treatments first. Think of the treatments (if you have to) as attempts to consign the pain itself to oblivion. It’s worth it (in retrospect) to kill only the pain and keep the rest of yourself.
I agree that we shouldn’t infringe on the rights of those with mental illness, but I also believe that guns should be banned. They are too often used to commit crimes. It seems that ordinary people don’t handle guns very well.
I think the current law forbids the sale of guns to people who have been involuntarily committed or otherwise found by the courts to be “mentally defective.” There isn’t- and there should never be- a registry of people with certain diagnoses of mental illness. If you are going to take away people’s guns based upon a medical diagnosis, let it be dementia or blindness.
If I had access to a gun I wouldn’t be alive. Plain and simple.
Not all who struggle with mental illness are violent. Not all who struggle with mental illness are self-violent. There is a distinct distinction between the two.
You can be one who falls into the suicidal realm, but not be a violent person towards yourself OR, more importantly, towards anyone else. You can be one who falls into the oft psychotic realm and still, not be a violent person towards yourself OR, more importantly, towards anyone else. Folks here have been focusing on suicide and gun control, folks out there are focusing on the mentally ill being deranged and taking out scores of others.
Really, i don’t think the gov’t much cares what you do to yourself as opposed to what you might do to scores of others in your mentally ill mind (no offense folks, I too, am mentally ill… just making a point here).
In addition; you have control of the guns, you have further control of the people.
I have had dark trials of suicidal desire and attempt, ongoing since I was 8 years of age (38 years now) and I grew up on a farm in rural NC for which my step-father hunted and had several guns. My father, a Korean Conflict Vet, owns several weapons. My ex-husband, a hunter in his right, had a few weapons. Never once did I think “my, let’s go and shoot myself or others today.”
If and when my time comes, and I choose to do so by my own hand, it will NOT be by weapon… just my personal choice and while I may, on occasion, dream of blowing a 1/2 dozen folks away ONLY because I’m annoyed or agitated by their stupidity during a mixed mania/depressed episode… I’d never in a million years, actually do so.
Having checks performed at time of weapon sales is not entirely a bad thing. However; private sales are just that, private and how one thinks a private seller can do a check on another is darn near implausible. However; even in doing checks… just because someone may register as having been diagnosed with a mental illness does not make that person a danger to society. Heck; you go through a divorce or you lose a close individual, you suffer through immense grief and get diagnosed with Clinical Depression… will that preclude you from owning a weapon?
Finally… once your mental illness diagnosis is registered in a national database for many to access.. what other areas of rights will be considered worthy of scrutiny? It is not entirely all about keeping guns out of the hands of the mentally ill and while the deaths of the wee ones were horrific… not all with mental illness are violent, to themselves or to others.
Just my thoughts…
What would you want a gun for? I vouch for taking guns out of the community in general.If I wanted to hurt myself with a gun, I would have nowhere to go, I don’t actually know of anyone who owns one.
I feel that if someone’s going to do something they will do it in any means plain and simple. I also feel that when people don’t have something it makes them want it more. I’m bipolar and used to cut myself, I used to be very suicidal now not so much. We own 3-4 assault rifles and 2 handguns, we always have different amounts because my fiance is an avid trader/collector so he’s always trading and selling/buying them. I’ve come to love and respect them in a way that you would love and respect a lion. You know it can do damage if not properly handled. I have 2 small children, 1 that’s 4 years old and another who is 11 months, and we do not deny them the chance to look at them when we have them out. We also let them have toy guns, we’ve taught them about not pulling the trigger, play with it, etc. because it can harm you. I feel that people just don’t have proper education on guns and that many parents are giving their children the proper attention and teaching that they need.
I agree that the mentally ill should not be denied accesses to firearms. Not all who are labeled “mentally ill” are dangerous to society, or are suicidal. I wouldn’t want to own a gun…but, I do enjoy target practice, just as I enjoy archery. Our rights should not be denied us because of a label given to us by society.
I don’t know if I want to comment or not. I have been bipolar my entire 45 years. Showed signs at 3-4yrs old. I grew up shooting and respecting guns. I was an avid scout and I turned into an avid gun owner. I use to own a pistol grip 12ga shotgun, an HK G3 assault rifle, yes with a 30 round clip, and a Glock model 19 pistol. Now I agree, it’s the responsibility of the individual, they can’t deny my rights granted to me by the Constitution. I will admit, there have been times in my life, Bipolar rage episodes, where I have been suicidal. I’ve ranted and raved around the house in Bipolar mania, along with psychosis, with the Glock to my head, so I can speak to this issue personally. After having a major episode in 2004, I got rid of all my guns. It was a twofold solution. I had small children, and I know how they can be, and I was afraid of myself having that sort of access to killing myself at a moment’s notice. I have had suicidal episodes, a few of them over the past eight years, and I think if I were to personally have had access to what I did have, I might have completed the process. But again, it is the responsibility of the individual person to police themselves. I knew what was going on and I did something about it, for me and my family. For the people trying to put further bans on guns, I don’t believe that is the solution. If they decide to run background checks that involve mental checks, how would they ever be able to know if someone, let’s say Bipolar, would or would not just click one day. There is no way to ever tell what’s in someone’s head. I stay safe and smart, because I know better, but I just don’t see how they could come to a conclusion to deny rights, and furthermore, to tell if someone with mental issues, would ever do something like suicide or homicide. When they ran the background check, wouldn’t that person, who wants to commit a crime, just lie about their current mental state?
I agree. Moreover, I heard most suicides are done by OD-ing, so you see the glaring irony here, right? And treating people with issues as lesser human, with less civil rights the “normals”, can be pretty damagin to way one view’s themselves. It’s not about guns… it’s about dignity to big degree.
I believe in gun control in general, but I agree here that it will not stop suicides.