Why People with a Mental Illness Shouldn’t Be Denied Guns

I’m a mental illness advocate, but quite frankly, if I wasn’t, I could be an anti-gun advocate. I’m not a fan of guns. Not in the least. Pieces of metal designed to kill strike me as being archaic and barbaric and speak to the basest nature of humanity and are not particularly enlightened. This is not to suggest I would ban guns (if anyone cares) but there are types of guns I would ban and laws I would enact to limit access to weapons.

So now that you know my political leanings I say this: you cannot take away a person’s (legal) access to guns just because they have a mental illness. It’s wrong and it fundamentally violates their rights.

People with a Mental Illness are Violent

People with a mental illness are not more violent than the rest of the population en masse. People with a mental illness are more likely to be victims of violence than perpetrators of it.

The idea that people with a mental illness are violent has to do with media portrayals as it seems that killers can rarely be constructed on TV shows without them being given a mental illness.

But real life isn’t like that. Most people with a mental illness are more like me: I have never hurt another person, physically, and I can never see myself doing so.

Subsections of the Population that Are Violent

Now, as it happens, there is a subset of the mentally ill population that is known to be violent – those with a substance abuse problem. Would you like to know who else is known to be violent? Anyone with a substance abuse problem, whether they have another mental illness or not. This is a rather large group of people.

There is another subsection of the mentally ill population that also tends to be violent: those with a serious mental illness who are untreated. For example, people in psychosis can be violent when not in treatment, particularly if they also suffer from anosognosia. This is a tiny group of people. In fact, only 3-5% of violent acts are attributable to people with a serious mental illness and most of those do not involve guns.

Who Should be Denied Guns?

So who should be denied guns? Everyone with a mental illness just because a tiny portion of them may be violent? Or maybe people with a substance abuse problem because they are a much greater problem due to their numbers?

Guns and the Mentally IllShould we keep a database of everyone who has ever been to an AA meeting or sought drug counselling? Just like tarring a person with a mental illness for life, should we keep people on this list forever?

Stupid.

Just as dumb as a keeping a big list of people with a mental illness. Who decides which mental illnesses should be included on this big list? What about people with multiple diagnoses? What about people whose diagnosis has changed over time?

And what about all the people who are successfully treated and living exactly the same type of life as everyone else?

Who Should Be Denied Guns

If you want to know who should be denied guns, I’m happy to tell you: people with a history of violence. Because if you want to know who may be violent then I suggest you look at their history. People who beat their wives, for example. Could we maybe deny them guns? People who abuse their children. People who beat up gays. People who beat up anyone. How about denying those people guns? (And yes, some people with a history of violence would have a mental illness, but the point is that they wouldn’t be judged on their illness, they would be judged on their actions.)

Denying People with a Mental Illness Guns is a Violation of Rights

Because mental illness is an illness – a medical illness – like any other. People with a mental illness haven’t done anything wrong and cannot be scarlet-lettered for a diagnosis which isn’t their fault and that they didn’t ask for. It’s penalizing people with an illness. That is not fair; that is not right; and quite frankly, it doesn’t even pass the sniff test. It’s like suggesting the people with cancer can’t own poodles in order to avoid poodle-violence. It’s stupid.

People Want to Protect Themselves from Violence

Yup, I get that people want to protect others (and themselves) from violence. That makes perfect sense. What does not make perfect sense is a knee-jerk reaction that blames a group of people who are, essentially, just like everyone else. Is my brain a mess? Yes it is. Does that mean I’m violent? No it doesn’t. And if I want to own a legal weapon, that is my right and denying it because I have a medical diagnosis is wrong. Period.

Studies on Mental Illness and Violence

Things you might like to read:

And that represents about the last two years of research. I could go on and on but the crux of the matter is, we know who is violent, and it’s not the average person with a mental illness.

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About Natasha Tracy

Natasha Tracy is an award-winning writer, speaker and consultant from the Pacific Northwest. She has been living with bipolar disorder for 18 years and has written more than 1000 articles on the subject.

Natasha’s New Book

Find more of Natasha’s work in her new book: Lost Marbles: Insights into My Life with Depression & Bipolar. Media inquiries can be emailed here.

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  1. Just what is the exact definition of “mental illness”? So-called mental illness is a favorite catch-all of unscrupulous bureaucrats who want to restrict the rights of the people. It is a favorite excuse to incarcerate or otherwise restrict law-abiding people.
    So far as Democrats are concerned, anyone who votes Republican is mentally ill.
    California’s new gun law that allows people to allegedly report “mentally ill” people and have their guns taken away will merely encourage liars and other spiteful people.

    • Mentally ill, behavioral disorders (my least favorite and the latest), insane, nuts, looney (my spell checker tells me it isn’t a word-regardless of spelling-not a good way to teach our children in my opinion) and so on and so on. Some term of course must be used to define in someway those of us who don’t fit into the standard one way or another. This of course is true in any way in any language. Definitions must be made, at least as a starting pt. to lead to further discussion. The ones made for “MI” are usually done of course for nefarious and not humanitarian reasons. Certainly not for accuracy. The “behavioral illnesses” label I know not the history of, but I suspect the clowns behind that label wished to make it clear that the MI were contained in a box that not only included tendency to do or act in a certain way but to squarely put blame on us for “bad” actions committed.
      In regard to your comments on who votes one way or another and under what label I find more then slightly amusing. If you think any mainstream politician (republican, democratic in the US) has any concern for the “MI” one way or another in the second amendment debate you are quite deluded. Sorry, but thats the way it is.
      I don’t know the specifics of what you say about the (what seems another irrational movement to find a boggy man-this one in CA-and again against the “MI”) politicians and other fools there. Please don’t think just the democrats don’t care about your rights. The republicans care even less. Others as well have almost zero concerns for them either. You are evil, irresponsible and unworthy to make decisions on your own behalf. You are a fool who deserves nothing other then to vote for one or the other masters. These masters will decide for you what your responsibilities are and then make the decisions for you.
      Maybe you should take my stance on this issue which I have stated numerous times in this forum and others.
      If you posses firearms of any type. You have an absolute moral right to do so. Same as anyone else who has in the past committed no violent acts towards others using these same forearms or others you may decide to purchase. If others who irrationally and through paranoid fear decide I or you am a threat to them decide to relieve me of my firearms then they become the aggressor (same as when the US has been the only country to kill others with nuclear weapons and decides what others are reasonable enough to possess their own). Absolute hypocrisy. Irrational, unreasonable immoral and a totally empty position. You have the right to use these same firearms to defend yourself against their attempt to relieve you of them. Again, they in this case are the aggressor. Not you. It is their fear of what you “might” do that is making them “actually, and in reality” take your property and your life from you if you don’t comply with them. YOU ARE IN THE RIGHT. Problem is they will most likely kill you and your family. The press will back them up. Excuses will be made. Police will lie. The whole thing will be swept under the carpet and the label you have been given as “mentally ill” will be reinforced everywhere and throughout the land and give even more excuses to those in power to screw those like you.
      You have no rights unless you can back them up. Good luck, I’m totally on your side on this one. The CA and other liberals are sometimes far worse then the republicans in taking rights away from the poor, disabled and disenfranchised. Too bad it always seems it’s the lesser of evils and hold your nose before voting situation.
      In any case none of them for the most part give a S___ about your gun rights or any other rights. They give a S___ about their own rights. This is really the Pt. of self-defense to begin with. I call the paternalistic democrats “Hippie Nazi’s”. As I consider myself a real hippie they disgust me. A “true” hippie believes in real freedom and equality. WN

  2. Rational people (so called rational people – ha) make laws about guns, but those same rational people have no idea how to make laws to protect those of us with mental health issues so life doesn’t get to this point. Laws that should educate, inform, and resources (financial and otherwise), that help those of us that deal with such diverse issues. If rational people could be rational about that, many gun laws would never become an issue because those inflicted with more pain than most, would learn to cope in healthier ways.

    • Unfortuntely, some mental issues cannot be taken care of in any rational way. For instance, a schizophrenic can become violent if that person is suffering from an acute symptoms of psychos due to hallucinations or delusions in their thinking! Also, some bipolar people can also be violent especially if they mix their medications with other drugs or alcohol. I have seen this myself as I am BiPolar and have been in hospitals before. However I do believe in the 2nd amendment and the right to bear arms especially in your own home to protect the life of your family members as well as hunting though hunting for sport does not appeal to me. I also do not believe that a mother or father should hand down his firearm to one of their children knowing very well that, that child has had issues in their life. Very few people who are truly psychotic with different mental illness can not be cured without the help of medications which they must take for life! Yes, there are some foods, yoga, etc that can help them to live a better life but those DO NOT cure them. It is sad when the 2nd amendment must be taken away from such people but if it is not, someone, somewhere is going can be killed by them and then those type of people rarely remember or understand what they have done.

  3. My mother is and always has been a kind, sweet, caring, law-abiding woman. Years ago, after becoming mentally ill in her early 40s, she shot and killed a dear, trusted family friend and shot and permanently disabled a police officer who responded to the scene. She bought the gun in secret and had previously never threatened or hinted at any violent behavior to her doctors or family members. Twenty-five years later and under continued treatment, she still feels great remorse for those events.
    My previously fun-loving neighbor was recently diagnosed with bipolar disorder in his early 50s. After treatment for about a year, he secretly bought a gun and killed himself. He never hinted at thoughts of suicide with any family member, friends or doctors.
    I think to deny the significant risks associated with the presence of guns around those suffering mental illness is unrealistic and irresponsible.

    • Please give details of where this happened. Since a LEO was shot and seriously injured I’m sure it was on the front page of at least your local newspaper. As for the other victim, your good family member that may or may not be the case.
      Also please provide not just the police side of the story (which is virtually useless in regard to facts and reality when one of their own is injured) but at least one or two other perspectives. One that is considered unbiased by all. Otherwise the case in my opinion does not even deserve comment.
      As to your neighbor, He has every right to commit suicide. Since he chose (if he did) a firearm. He chose a means that was one of the quickest and most lethal and as well least painless. Should he have been forced to cut himself over and over again experiencing much pain as I did and still not accomplish his goal. As a free man absolutely not. I am a man and have a fight to do to my body anything I wish. If you take it upon yourself to stop or inhibit me in anyway, you are guilty of a crime. If not an accepted one, a moral one.
      As i’ve said a million or more times. Your fear of what I MAY do does not give you the right to stop my actions in the future, regardless of the statistics you use to calculate its probability. On the the other hand I have every moral right to use any means at my disposal to stop you from possessing any thing I wish. I to will use statistics to calculate to use violence or not to stop you. Morally I have no problem shooting you in the present for what you think I MAY do in the future. You fear level should have no effect on my reality in the present. Do you read minds. Are your predictions better then those of YOUR victims? No one can tell. Yet you support violence or the threat of it against others because of your own person experiences ans your ability to predict the future. I do not give you that right and I have just as much right to protect myself or use firearms as anyone else.
      I believe YOU are unrealistic, not responsible, paranoid, controlling and so on. If you take my firearms you deserve what you get taking them, same I I would taking your hard earned property and hobbies from you.
      You thinking of course is solidified by this and I forget the formal logical name for this (any help on this terminology by anyone would be appreciated) but in short take my property and I reserve the right to take action against you. WN

  4. No one knows all there is to know re: the pilot who locked that cockpit door and took that plane down..

    They’re still looking through his sock drawer. Unless they have some concrete evidence from his psychiatrist stating that he was way more than depressed, was currently and actively, seeking to harm himself or others, , we’ll never really know. But just look at what he did! -With no gun whatsoever.

    That’s a lot of mental illness to hide.
    To intentionally kill 150 people is the ulltimate suicide. It really bothers me, it’s just too much to process.

    • If he killed 149 innocent people that’s murder. Suicide is a different story. Don’t think anyone really knows at this pt. one way or another. Since he is dead himself at least in the US the press are free to trash him in any way they like. If he were a police officer who was killed in the line of abusing and firing at innocent people and caused large amounts of death the press here in the US if they were to follow past procedures would go on and on and on about how much a hero he was and how no one knows the truth even with evidence pointing almost 100% to that. If someone who is MI or the “victim” is a police officer even with a very large corrupt record. The press will not say that. If police in reverse say any negative about another it is printed without qualifier as if was proven in a court of law. Authorities are not to believed and the press are not to be trusted to report thing without bias. Only when forced with the threat of lawsuits do they show any restraint of police victims. When the victim is dead. All reality disappears. WN

      • I don’t believe that they have sent a subpoena to that pilots’ psychiatrist as of yet. Maybe he knows something he’s not saying…yet.
        In the US we prosecute many police officers that randomly go off on people, and usually that officer has been written up before b/c of a history of bad conduct. Look at Drew Peterson. They finally nailed him.
        A police officer who goes on a shooting spree is very rare, but it has happened. Police officers have a very high rate of suicide. Maybe the highest. It’s a very, very high stress job. Many have mental problems, and medical help is offered for the asking. After a kill, it is mandatory, as is court. Many are sued. And believe me, the press is not kind or sympathetic to them. Not one bit. They feed on it.

        Though not unheard of, a Denver cop got shot right in his face by helping a man out of his car the other day on a routine traffic stop with no intenet of hurting him. There are cameras all over the place now, recording what they do. The perp was killed and the cop’s in critical condition right now.
        Yes, there are cover ups for bad cops, but they aren’t exclusive to the US.
        Russia reigns way up there.

        • Sorry Stevie. I’ve seen it first hand. It’s not just bad apples. The police barrel is filled with bad apples. I’ve been beaten and torture a few times just for protesting for civil rights. And I am a white guy in his 40’s. It’s quite common here in PA and happens every day. Dirty cops are almost never even questioned about their illegal activity. I expect to be illegally killed by one of these crooks someday. I will never stop fighting for civil rights within the framework of the law. The police rarely follow the law. I do and that is irrelevant to them. I am willing to die for it and most likely will. It’s all the fox guarding the hen house. No rational person believes that works. It never has nor ever will. WN

  5. Hi. I tried to post this yesterday:

    I am glad you love my post and thinking how much a younger me would have benefited from hearing that post, I totally know how grateful you are. :) Check back here as often as possible because I will totally spend a lot of time here pulling you and others up.

    I have my own site, dealing with so-called “Aspergers”, but I always looked at it and thought “something just doesn’t feel right.” It was this: I was assuming that everyone diagnosed with Aspergers really had the traits they were presumed to have, and also that everyone diagnosed with Aspergers was similar in nature, rather than their similar behavior was caused by being put in similar situations (including being- randomly- singled out for abuse).

    http://politicsofautism.weebly.com/index.html

    Anyone who happens to get stuck on one of the contradictions, or discovers one (which could happen to ANYONE) is deemed to have the same “nature” as anyone else who gets stuck on or discovers one. It’s like reverse lottery- what if we said anyone winning the Powerball has the same nature as anyone else who won it? It would be silly. Well, same here , only with a negative thing. Anyone who unluckily does the wrong thing that is against tthe secret rules must have the same nature!

    Just like what they did with people in Europe and other kingdoms and dictatorships. Anyone who goes and does the (secretly) illegal thing because he doesn’t guess the emperor’s random and unguessable wishes must have the exact same nature as another separate person who broke another random rule that HE couldn’t guess either!

    There is a supposed “natural essence” attributable to both rulebreakers because they both got ensnared in the emperor’s trap. Like saying that two flies who both got caught in an invisible moving web both must have had the same nature. It’s hubris on the part of the emperor (or teacher, president) to assume that there is a specific, naturally occuring, univeral “syndrome” for “anyone who falls afoul of my rules”. MY rules are so natural and self evident and universal that the human brain has carved out a space for them and also, in sick humans, a space that opposes my rules!

    As if nature knows what his rules/wishes are and created a syndrome opposed to them! And as if there were a static nature to all those who got caught in them, when it is the RULES that change, therefore they can ensnare ANYONE who is at the wrong place at the wrong time (and this is random chance so it can happen to ANY person, not one “type” of person)

    And what about if the kids were suddenly transported to, say, France for foreign studies adn the rules there were different, and more in line with the “Aspie’s” behaviour? Would he change his nature to break those rules, now, too? Or would his syndrome go away because he was no longer breaking any rules?

    Especially silly since his rules may change from day to day and may even say two opposite things at two opposite times (“you must paint!” “you must not paint!”), and also since listening to and repeating one thing the teacher/emperor proclaims (which would be being obedient) will lead you into contradicting the other rule!!

    I just wish someone could say it more eloquently and simply than I can, but I suspect it’s just because I haven’t worked out in my mind exactly exactly what is happening yet.

    Check this out: https://seventhvoice.wordpress.com/2014/12/10/the-gas-lighting-of-women-and-girls-on-the-autism-spectrum/

    From the article (which, sadly, assumes Aspergers exists):

    “If a woman expresses the capacity to recognize and understand that she may be Autistic, she’s then told by professionals, that she’s too self-aware to be on the Autism Spectrum and is summarily dismissed.”

    Now what could this possibly mean? Since “you have Aspergers” is a gaslighting tactic designed to make you feel your perceptions are wrong (in order to cause self doubt in people who stumble upon uncomfortable facts)- think about it: “this looks true because you have Aspergers; no one else would perceive it this way, you’re special”- then if a person realises he has AS, there is no longer any need to diagnose him with it, since he has already accepted the faultiness of his perceptions.

    But if he DOESN’T think he has AS (or, heaven forbid, that it doesn’t exist), then he MUST have it…meaning, they will just keep saying he has it over and over until he finds fault with his ability to perceive. If he doesn’t doubt his perception yet (by acknowledging he has AS), then he isn’t fully gaslighted yet adn they need to keep pushing teh diagnosis. Also, if a person is doubting ANYTHING in life (whether it’s AS related or not), they will pick that up on his face. They don’t like doubt- it leads to questions. So they diagnose him because he has “the thinking look.”

    It’s like, “we won’t diagnose you with AS if we see you’ve already done it to yourself.”

    And the only reason they felt they had to tell the woman in the example that she DIDN’T have it was because, in their opinion, she WAS perceiving SOMETHING correctly- that is, she perceives correctly…the fact that she perceives things incorrectly! Your thinking is right, they tell her…because you know your thinking is wrong. Your thinking is good because you are acknowledging the existence of this “AS,” which we can use against you and other people. (of course, in addition, this whole idea can create confusion, being a contradiction- she’s thinking right becuz she’s thinking wrong- WTF?)

    In my example with the man who insists he doesn’t have it, it is the inverse. Since his thinking is CORRECT and he KNOWS IT, they have to strive to prove that he is not seeing the naked Emperor, that the facts he’s seeing are not there, they are due to his “Aspergers” and that he’s “different”. So he better not expect anyone else can see the facts too! (because then he might try to wake them up- better keep him an outcast and feeling disconnected with others…also if he talks to others they might show him he’s not insane). But yes, he is insane because he denies the existence of our best gaslighting tool…so let’s keep using it on him. “You have AS” “You have AS” “YOU HAVE AS!!!”

    Both the man and the woman go insane in the long run- truly insane- because they cannot sort out the contradictions. That sanity is insanity and insanity is sanity, and whatever else.

    More from the article:

    “If a woman expresses feeling that she may have been let down by others or betrayed by a society that only values certain ways of being, she is told by professionals, that she has a persecution complex and is summarily dismissed.”

    (this is referring to professional who don’t want to diagnose a supposedly Aspergers woman with Aspergers, opting to consider other causes instead)

    The gaslighting goes both ways with this one. The article believes this woman has AS, is not being heard by doctors who attribute it to a persecution complex instead. But what if both the AS diagnosis AND the persecution complex diagnosis are wrong? What if she really is being persecuted and it’s not just a “persecution complex” (itself a suspicious diagnosis, seemingly concocted to shut people up who are really being persecuted)? And what if it isn’t her AS which is causes her to be persecuted, but others’ choice to persecute her? Even if they did single her out because of unusual personality traits or behaviours, does this mean the AS caused those behaviors? Or did the life situations she was in cause them?

    The whole topic is very confusing but I’ve made strong headway and steady progress ever since I’ve been studying this gaslighting hoax that is Aspergers. I;m still looking for the real explanation behind bipolar as well…

    it all chalks down to- people want to diagnose people for their behavior and thoughts without examining what caused the behavior/thoughts. It is a form of ad hominem (all psychology has the potential to be) because it says “you think this because of what YOU are”, and ignores that they may think what they think because they saw evidence for it!

  6. “”””at leasr in Germany they have respect for those accused””” Not any more.
    They’re making new laws there now,, b/c of this.

    We are to be branded all the more.

  7. Worse yet, this German pilot was seeing a German psychiatrist that had expressly told him that he was in NO mental condition to fly any airplane.
    But this pilot didn’t listen.
    He did it anyway. Depressed? ok…maybe a tad.
    Taking a plane down with 150 people in it? That seems to be way beyond depressed.
    Should this psychiatrist have openly SAID anything about his mental state to Lufthansa? Even privately?
    Or would that be illegal? Maybe in this case -fuck illegal? I dunno.

  8. This German Lufthansa pilot (in the news the last few days) that crashed his plane with 150 others on board, didn’t need a gun to kill himself did he? That plane became his weapon du jour.
    I hear he suffered from depression, and his psychiatrist disuaded him from even flying a plane.
    I wish to God he HAD a gun and finished himself off, instead of killing 150 innocent people needlessly and ruining 1000’s of other peoples lives!!
    The next thing we’ll probably hear, is that he’s bipolar. But that’s another subject…

    God bless those poor dead people.

      • Holy S (don’t know if Natasha bans the word), same though. Maybe should be banned because he was European or was younger then thirty and had short hair? Maybe because he was an illegitimate child of a rock and roll star. My first cousin was a navigator/weapons specialist in the backseat of an F-15 who went to the USAF academy in Colorado. His mother is Schizophrenic. Maybe he should have been dis-honorably discharged. Another first cousin of mine on my fathers is a pilot who has flow Hillary Clinton around among other powerful people. I suppose since he is related to me with BP he should also be grounded. Just for safety of course. Blond hair of course is incompatible with being a pilot. All us with light brown hair know that. Grounded. Four years of the toughest pilot training school in the world means nothing. Done. While were at it lets take the entire world population of around 1.4 billion who ever has had or is suspected of in the future having depression banned from flying, being doctors, engineers, scientist, astronauts, musicians, factory workers, truck drivers……… Let’s put them all on disability and forever prevent them from working and then call them all lazy and treat then like S…. Perfect solution. Problem solved. Suicide means homicide. All is well in the world. Fools.

          • will.nist@yahoo.com
            I gave up on privacy a long time ago when I realized it was a means to persuade us to self-censor. The worst lind of censorship. I expect more beatings, torture, extortion and so on from the US gov. As I said free speech is an illusion. Only those who don’t use it naively believe it exists. When you begin to try to use it you immediately learn it’s not real. Sounds good at parades on memorial day and so on (in fact try doing an ant-war protest at same parade and see how it works out?). As I always say it’s a feel good night time story to tell little children to make them feel safe. For adult it has no place in the world of reality. WN

    • Who didn’t see this deal coming. Blame depressed and/or suicidal people for homicide. Even though these same people are less likely in most circumstances to hurt others and more likely in almost all circumstances to be hurt by others. Reminds me of those who make a positive connection between homosexuals and pedophilia. No known connection at all. Any correlation anyway does not point to causation.
      lets ground pilots with minor stress related chest palpitation. Sorry, no one will report it. Same as depression. More reasons for pilots to not report any symptoms. Let’s all pretend we are perfect until we die on the job. This B.S. is so absurd and institutionalized within especially the US system it ignores reality.
      Homicide and suicide are unrelated. Homosexuality and pedophilia are unrelated. Problem is sometimes social discrimination pushes the results it would like to see. This is a problem. At least in Germany they have respect in the press for those accused. In the US we have nothing like that. The police report something and it is printed by the papers as if god came down and gave them it. Shame and even more reasons for the sick of all types to not get help for what ails them. Again, lets all pretend to be perfect, especially when our sanity is questioned in any inappropriate way and just wait for shit to happen. WN

      • “Who didn’t see this deal coming. Blame depressed and/or suicidal people for homicide. Even though these same people are less likely in most circumstances to hurt others and more likely in almost all circumstances to be hurt by others.”

        Yep. Put the blame on the victims and take the blame off of the ones more likely to be violent (the “regular’, “normal”, tough guy “follow the rules,” “cops are awesome!!” c*ck s*ckers who think being tough means being nasty).

        “Reminds me of those who make a positive connection between homosexuals and pedophilia. No known connection at all. Any correlation anyway does not point to causation.”

        Agreed. “Sane” people are more likely to commit crimes and violence…and, like you said, AGAINST those deemed “mentally ill.” Besides, most mentally ill people who ARE violent are violent, in context, because they were provoked, adn most mentally average people would commit those same acts of violence were they subjected to the circumstances.

        “lets ground pilots with minor stress related chest palpitation. Sorry, no one will report it. Same as depression. More reasons for pilots to not report any symptoms. Let’s all pretend we are perfect until we die on the job. This B.S. is so absurd and institutionalized within especially the US system it ignores reality.”

        Yep, and then when something goes wrong, they’ll all say “why didn’t we know about it?” But they will never ground pilots who are racist against countries they are flying over, who might crash the plane, or who are obedient little drones who, perhaps, crashed the planes becuse they were told to, in order to stir up hatred and angst between two different groups of people…

        “Homicide and suicide are unrelated. Homosexuality and pedophilia are unrelated. Problem is sometimes social discrimination pushes the results it would like to see. This is a problem.”

        Yes, and idiots who don’t have (or don’t use) critical thinking skills (you know, the ones NOT being diagnosed with Aspergers and bipolar while at school- the little “normies”) are the ones who are reporting and listening to that bullshyte.

        “At least in Germany they have respect in the press for those accused. In the US we have nothing like that. The police report something and it is printed by the papers as if god came down and gave them it.”

        And THIS is why I LOVE Germany and Germans. Been there a year ago, loved it. Such sane, rational and warm hearted people. Europeans in general are not so stupid as Americans with regard to all this stuff. They seem to know how to balance everything out, facts-wise. In fact, I read somewhere (I totally and completely forget where), that “Aspergers”-like traits are considered the norm in many European countries and therefore are not turned into a syndrome like they are in the Good Ol USA.

        “Shame and even more reasons for the sick of all types to not get help for what ails them. Again, lets all pretend to be perfect, especially when our sanity is questioned in any inappropriate way and just wait for shit to happen. WN”

        Yep, and even more reason for people to blame them for being quiet about it. “Mentally ill people are so shady and sinister.” Well, yeah, because you scare them away from the sunlight! And like other mentally healthy people don;t have problems as well. It’s funny, the mentally ill people whose illness WOULD, in some cases, cause them to commit crimes, are going to fly under the radar with this approach.

        That’s it. I’m moving to Germany. Awesome castles there besides.

        • Sorry Sandi, what I meant was who didn’t see this discrimination of those with depression coming. Not a pilot crashing a plane even if he did. Depression has nothing to do with murder! Even if did anything wrong. The man since he is dead has already been convicted of something that could just as well be an accident. Depression should stop no one from doing any job they wish. Period.

          • So they don’t even know if he did it on purpose or not? Sheesh!

            They are also, I hear, trying to say he was a Muslim sympathizer so that they stir up peolpe against the Palestinians.

        • Yes, easy to be a tough gut when you are backed up by many thugs with badges and so on. I’m a big guy who can defend himself but have rarely done so. Have never done so when confronted by corrupt police. They never fight like men one on one and use any resistance as grounds to beat you and so on. And some times to kill you. I have never given them the opportunity. I’m a peaceful man, but have had many, many reason to not be so. It was never once man on man. Ever. Thugs and dirty police never put themselves in a situation of a fair fight. Never. Same as any other criminal. No difference. I only fought and spoke for equal rights for all and as I’ve said was punished both before and after initial confrontation. I’m getting older now and leaving that stuff up to the younger people fighting for the rights we all deserve. I’m very proud of what I’ve done even though it has cost me so much and has made my family just believe it is a symptom of something else and not my deeply held beliefs.
          The pubic response to this deal is old school cowardice at the most basic level. The duality of what is spoken with the microphone on and with it off. A huge amount of people will experience depression and almost all will have someone they are very, very close to them experience. The very tendency of the human desire to fit in and cheer the (non-supported and powerless) demon of the day is so powerful among most humans (and pts. to their cowardice and the individual weaknesses of them) to make those of us who stand on principle just cringe at it). What is even far worse is those who know they will soon fall ill in another way or already are who join or even lead the call to burn the witch of the day.
          As you say about then blaming those in power when something happens after the fact for something that “should” have been done in the first place gives justification to those pulling the strings for continued and new abuse before the fact. Virtually no one of course will stand up for any of this as then fingers will then be pointed at them and their family and friends, as well as themselves for being in support of “those” people. This is of course very well known by most and is the reason that ahole politicians with the morals of a known serial rapist continue to be elected. They don’t care much about trashing family and friends (of which they have mostly no real ones) and instill fear in anyone who supports any weakness in anyone. They of course in reality and outside this twisted construct are usually the weakest of all. It’s much like what I always say how the individualist Ayn Rand when sick had no problem using Medicare and other gov. benefits and ho this Cruz clown who fought like hell for the poorest not to have medical care to now receive it himself. These are just total scum. These are the real people who have lives that make EVERYONE ELSE’S worse. The world is always better without these types and there are view in my opinion that that can be said of. They are the true leeches.
          Also love Germany. Was there when I was younger and loved it. Will trade my US citizenship any day to any German who wishes to swap. Sadly this is not legal and I must tell I don’t know why? Apparently, as I’ve been told since I was a child EVERYONE wants to come to the US. I just want to leave the shit hole and just have my friends and family visit me and never come back. Most hypocritical, war mongering, shit hole on earth. Freedom is just a slogan and means nothing except for those with mucho dinero as we say.

          • “They never fight like men one on one and use any resistance as grounds to beat you…”

            Always go out with a friend or multiple friends so if police give you trouble they can distract them, or, in worst case scenarios, tase them and you can make a getaway- defending yourself is against everyone, not just civilians.

            “I have never given them the opportunity. I’m a peaceful man, but have had many, many reason to not be so. It was never once man on man. Ever. Thugs and dirty police never put themselves in a situation of a fair fight. Never. Same as any other criminal.”

            True, but what happens if they were about to use lethal force against you? At this point, I just want to live in a mobile trailer (to get away from the gov if it ever comes after me for no reason) and visit my family often. Strike up and go across the country and wake people up, teach them to plant theri own gardens, live outside “the system” and so forth.

            “I only fought and spoke for equal rights for all and as I’ve said was punished both before and after initial confrontation.”

            You were arrested fro protesting? Do you have any details? This would be interesting. I’ve always wanted to hand out pamphlets to school children, but all those laws about “soliciting.”

            “I’m very proud of what I’ve done even though it has cost me so much and has made my family just believe it is a symptom of something else and not my deeply held beliefs.”

            As if a physical condition could cause such specific thoughts and beliefs! Hah. One of their main fairytales, that genetics and biology can cause specific abstract thoughts, so they can one day they can take specific philosophies and views (that they don’t like) and then diagnose people for having them, the unsuspecting public believing, because some scientist on Oprah said so, that biology can influence thoughts. Hooey!

            And of course, the whole Aspergers debate fits into this. “you have Aspergers because your opinions are against the authority’s” is like I was saying before (don’t know if the comment got published or not), about how:

            “There is a supposed “natural essence” inside all rulebreakers because they all got ensnared in the trap. Like saying that two flies who both got caught in an invisible moving web both must have had the same nature. It’s hubris on the part of the rulemaker (or teacher, president) to assume that there is a specific, naturally occuring, univeral “syndrome” for “anyone who falls afoul of my rules”.

            “MY rules are so natural and self evident and universal that the human brain has carved out a space for intuiting them, and in sick asperger humans, a space that opposes my rules in specific!

            “As if nature knows what his rules/wishes are and created a syndrome opposed to them! And as if there were a static and similar nature to all those who got caught in the rules, when it is the RULES that change, therefore they can ensnare ANYONE who is at the wrong place at the wrong time (and this is random chance so it can happen to ANY person, not one “type” of person)”

            I’m not sure but I seem to recall Jonathon Swift talking about this four hundred years ago. Something about how in one of his books the government thinks it is able to determine what conspiracy a man is thinking about by analyzing his feces. They can tell what type of conspiracy he’s thinking about by the color and shape, etc. Sounds a lot like this Asperger crap.

            “The pubic response to this deal is old school cowardice at the most basic level. The duality of what is spoken with the microphone on and with it off. A huge amount of people will experience depression and almost all will have someone they are very, very close to them experience.”

            Not to mention they focus purely on biological causes most of the time (also medical “cures”) and, at best, go so far as to mention childhood trauma or abuse. But heaven forbid should they mention societal or public or political or philosophical unrest as the cause. The subtle nature of such causes also ensures they will be covered up.

            “The very tendency of the human desire to fit in and cheer the (non-supported and powerless) demon of the day is so powerful among most humans (and pts. to their cowardice and the individual weaknesses of them) to make those of us who stand on principle just cringe at it). What is even far worse is those who know they will soon fall ill in another way or already are who join or even lead the call to burn the witch of the day.”

            Guess I’m a space alien, then, because I never had that instinct in my life. Bollock to those who do. :D

            I get most of my wisdom from bulletpoint quotes on the internet and Mark Twain said something about when a person stands up alone, no one wants to for they are too cowardly, and then when it becomes popular and accepted everyone wants to do it because it requires no more bravery.

            My ancestor, he was hanged as a witch in Salem MA and proclaimed his innocence all the way to the gallows, so, in the terms of “biology” and “genetics” maybe I am :genetically inclined” to be falsely accused.

            “Virtually no one of course will stand up for any of this as then fingers will then be pointed at them and their family and friends, as well as themselves for being in support of “those” people.”

            Because they are sissies, cowards, and are more outraged about their own safety (fearful, I should say) than outraged about others’ pain.

            “This is of course very well known by most and is the reason that ahole politicians with the morals of a known serial rapist continue to be elected. They don’t care much about trashing family and friends (of which they have mostly no real ones) and instill fear in anyone who supports any weakness in anyone.”

            Yes, they pick on the little guy and then get mad at the friends and family they (the narcissistic sociopaths) never had or shunned.

            “They of course in reality and outside this twisted construct are usually the weakest of all. It’s much like what I always say how the individualist Ayn Rand when sick had no problem using Medicare and other gov. benefits and ho this Cruz clown who fought like hell for the poorest not to have medical care to now receive it himself. These are just total scum. These are the real people who have lives that make EVERYONE ELSE’S worse. The world is always better without these types and there are view in my opinion that that can be said of. They are the true leeches.”

            They convince strong people (or at least just average people) and smart people they are defective (or just people who can’t figure out their shit, which is everybody, not just smart or “logical” people, like the victim blamers want you to believe- “ooh, they singled him out because he can’t understand their nonsense because of his Aspergers logical mind!”) And then they WHINE and SCREAM “oppression!!!” when we just try to get them to stop, even if we don’t punish them!

            As much as I love Rand’s article “The Comprachicos” (google it), she was a hypocrite, and her Objectivism subtly but surely upholds the “Status Quo”, “survival of the fittest” (as against the most JUST). suports the rich keeping their money because they ‘earned’ it, even though at the same time it claims we live in a society that doesn’t reward work and punish laziness anymore.

            Amerika sucks. there. Said it. we have all these freedoms- to buy, to sell, to consume, etc. But I’m staying here because WE need to take back OUR country, and not surrender it to the lunatics.

  9. AGREED. And, Natasha, could you add something about politics and the diagosing of those who disagree?

    What happens when some country’s government labels anyone who disagrees with their politics “mentally ill”, doen’t allow them to have guns, and is therefore able to take their rights away because they have no guns to defend themselves?

    F.E.- Soviet Russia calls farmers who oppose the communist government insane, takes away their guns, so when the troops come to take away the crops and give it to The State, no one can scare them off the property.

    • No reason to explain yourself Sandi. This is a common all people take wanting to control others. You need no more reason to explain why you want a computer, tv, chair etc. and so and so forth. Is no ones business but your own. Period. You may want it to make a mold for a ceramic one. As a mantle piece. Whatever. It’s your business. You haven’t hurt anyone in the past and so on so it’s your business and no one else’s. Do you feel the need to explain to others why you use the toilet? Why you go to college and so and so forth! Of course not. No reason for explanation. None needed. You want one you have a right to have one. Renita, if she can con enough people out of their own individualism will collect taxes enough to buy guns for police officers to use their own guns to forcibly take yours. The threat of violence will then be used. If that doesn’t work ACTUAL violence. The excuse of keeping the “peace” will be used and YOU will be proclaimed violent. End of story. Renita gets to actually use violence on you and use her “fear” of violence of what you MAY do. You become the bad guy and she sits smugly in her chair in complete confidence and safety while you spend years in jail being abused by “the good guys” all at the cowardly instructions of someone like Renita. End. Justice Renita’s way. WN

      • Agreed.

        If we explain ourselves, we imply that the only reason we have to own a gun is if there is some specific reason or necessity for it, which the idiots can always deny and talk around, by tryng to claim said thing isn’t a necessity or that we can use other things for that necessity.

        Nevertheless, I am in the habit of explaining myself because the proof and the facts are on my side, and because some non idiots who genuinely don’t understand the gun issue well enough might waltz by and learn the facts about why people need and use guns, and it may sway them towards the truth.

        By the way, I use the toilet because… :P

    • Not sure which response you are saying I’m speaking liking like a true American. One think I can say is I was born in the political and currently excepted political entity currently know as the USA. I don’t though consider myself an American ( either north, south, central, south or any other geographical or political combination or division of any of them). I also don’t consider myself a citizen one way or another of any country at all. Even groups I may occasionally speak with I do not consider myself a member of. I am a human being and I decide right from wrong and where my loyalties lie and so on. For the most part I would much rather be a citizen of Canada then the USA. More respect for the individual as a whole. Denmark, Norway, Finland, The Netherlands even better. The USA is a militaristic bag of assholes in my opinion. Still, I have a right to any firearms I wish. Period. Not your choice or any other humans. I mean it. Would trade my citizenship for amy of the above in a minute, but would work to remedy it’s faults as I see them just as I do here and have been punished for severely. I believe in real freedom and not the illusion of it as told to me by others and those who proclaim to be my betters. Force, beatings, torture and so on have been used on me already. They seem to work in the short run, but my sense of justice seems to always return.
      W.N.

  10. My mother had a well documented case of mental illness in Canada but she didn’t die in Canada. She shot herself in California where she had easy access to a gun. I can’t help but wonder if maybe the gun laws were different there she might have stood a better chance of being alive today. In my opinion most Americans are just plain gun crazy. It’s well known that the rate of gun violence is much higher in America than in Canada for a reason…

    As far as I’m concerned guns are a highly lethal instrument of violence and anyone who supports their use supports violence. They are used for one thing and one thing only and that is to kill or maim

    It’s ridiculous that anyone would suggest banning all other instruments of suicide because many if not all have a dual purpose such as ropes, or knives, etc

    Looking back on a previous post I’m deeply sorry that I perpetuated the stigma of mental illness… The fact is there are more prisons in Canada than there are forensic hospitals…

    • Sorry, but none of that is relevant. I have a right to have a gun, be a Jew, read any book I like. breath the air I choose and so on. It’s none of your business and irrelevant to me what you think I want a gun for, how you judge me for wanting one and so on and so on. It’s none of your business. You mine yours and i’ll mine mine. If I hurt someone with one feel free to come after me as I will you. This includes you getting together with you buddies pooling money it takes then giving a gun to someone called a police officer to take my gun through actual violence because of your fear of predicted violence. I suppose you think that makes you feel like others are violent and not yourself. Also, I remember when I was younger Canada not being so strict on guns, not that it matters at all. I don’t know the Canadian specifics at all. What your mother did or didn’t do doesn’t give you any right to decide what I do or don’t own. I don’t care if all but one human kills themselves with a gun. You don’t have any right to define what I get to own. I suppose again you will you will use violence to uphold your ant-violence stance.
      None of your business. Period.

    • My mother was refused a handgun in Pennsylvania due to a single hospitalization due to depression. She was later raped and killed in her own home due to her not being able to defend herself. Your mothers case and mine are irrelevant to the rights we all have and those we grant to others who have done us no wrong.
      I don’t have guns for self-defense. Guns cause more deaths then they prevent. I like shooting them and it’s none of your business id I do. Again. Mind yours and I’ll mind mine. Otherwise maybe me and my buddies will decide what you and yours can’t. Just cause we want to. Same thinking as you. Not fair is it.

      • My prayers are with you. May the criminal rot in hell.

        Hope we are able to free other mothers to have the guns they need and the support they need for the troubles they go through. People deemed Mentally Ill are targeted by criminals because they know they can get away with it.

        • I’m so very sorry Sandi. Nothing like that ever happened to my mother. It was just a response to all the many obvious fake comments made by Renita. I though everyone understood that. Please re-read Renita who has had more fatalities and wrongs done to her, her family and loved ones to completely defy all rules of statistics or be the only one in Canada to have such things happen. I was just trying to be satirical. Renita was just passing lies as truth. Again I greatly sorry. Not to Renita, but to you and anyone else who hadn’t read Renita’s body of work and misunderstood the pt. I was trying to make.
          The pt. though I think is on the mark. My mother is 74 years old and my father died 3 years ago and isn’t there to protect her. Luckily my brother in law lives upstairs with my nieces and he has many, many hi-powered hunting rifles and people know what would happen if they went for my mother.
          Sorry Sandi but I don’t believe in god, but I do appreciate the thought. WN

          • Ah, ok. I wasn’t necessarily saying I believed in God. Just using vague supportive language. But, yes, I am glad it never happened (didn’t read the whole thread), and I hope that the hypothetical scenario would definitely be a good reason to let people own guns.

            I live in a blue state, so it’s too much a hassle to get one here, adn I don’t have a lot of money, but I will get one as soon as I save up enough and maybe move (maybe to a mobile trailer, for when the Feds come for my money, hehe) to a more gun-friendly state.

            • Have no problem with people believing in god. I just don’t. I have respect for all who respect me and my rights and none for those who don’t. PA is extremely easy to get any type of gun. Pistol, revolver, shotgun, rifle. Federal permits think OK to get full auto as well. Great fun they are. Carry permit is five minutes at court house and purchase is same. Someone calls and says you are depressed and all civil rights disappear though and you cease to be human and loose all rights to defend your life and have firearms for any other reason. Most have no idea it is to ruin someones life like that here and deny it. Those in custody disputes who are first to have an attorney are the first to abuse this law. A simple accusation with no proof or due process is enough. So it’s not really a right, just the illusion of one. Like so many “rights” we have. One joint, a simple misd. and your rights dissolve like a cube of sugar. The state police even keep an illegal gun registry that they have banned from keeping by the judiciary. They continue to do it as if the judicial branch and the legislaure don’t even exist. Read the statutes and case law over and over again so many many times. All illegal and they still due it even though all state police should be charged with a first degree misd. Law very plain unlike most yet they just ignore it. Good luck, WN
              Oh yes and I’m not to be angry. That is a sign I am ill.

            • Will, I can’t reply to all your posts, so I’m going to reply to this one.

              Yes, even in states like that, where it is easy to GET a gun, they are trying to get them taken away just as easily. They want the “normal” people (who are, actually lunatics) to get more guns, and us to get less guns.

              Why?

              Because if there is social unrest, and the bullies come out on top (and good hearted people kept silent and downtrodden), then the economic elites that run our country and society will be able to keep us fighting each other and that weakens us, and if they are also able to keep down the thinkers adn questioners or simply those who have been disadvantaged by their shit and dont need to think outside the box to be angry, then thier job (taking control of the country) will be easier.

              We are so glad we have the Internet here to speak to each other about these things wake each other up. Next thing you know, it will be gone!

              Yes, anger is a sign of illness because it means you are dissatisfied and dissatisfied means you are going to fight back, potentially at least.

  11. In Canada, both criminals and the mentally ill who come in contact with the law do in fact go into a police database… you’d probably be surprised what goes into those databases.

    It’s illegal to KNOWINGLY assist someone commit suicide, ie if they have a known mental illness there is a possibility at some point in their lives that they may hurt themselves (and yes maybe even others) so it’s ridiculous to think that a person with a known mental illness should be allowed to own or carry a gun.

    • Surprised at what goes into a police database? Only surprised at what doesn’t such as abuse from same and complaints against same. About what goes on in all police in all counties. Also, funny how the politically unpopular seem to be the mentally ill depending on where they live. Communists were labeled MI in the US on a regular basis while in the same time period capitalist were schizophrenic in the USSR and ended up in Siberia. I guess YOU will be making those decisions? I suppose if the majority says one is MI then they are? If the wind blows the other way then maybe you are the one MI.
      Guessing if I have a gun and YOU decide I am MI and then Use a gun on me to take mine and I use mine on you to stop you from shooting me that proves I am violent and MI and should never have had a gun to begin with. That’s a very convenient and useful line of thinking isn’t it?

    • Renita, what you don’t understand is that a lot of mentally sane people commit suicide and are an obvious suicide risk, and a lot of mentally insane people do not.

      And what’s it to you if someone commits suicide? If they seem to be getting to that point, their family can take the guns out of the house (and hope they don’t use some other method).

  12. Just because you WORK in a psychiatric facility doesn’t make you immune to taking your life. I know a family friend whose father and brother both WORKED at the same psychiatric hospital and shot themselves DEAD.

    • Wow, you seem to know a lot of people who have committed suicide. Do you have an example to fit every scenario?
      Did they both do it at the same time on the same day? This is in Canada I suppose. This must have been reported in the press being such a bizarre incident and in a hospital! Even though most suicides in the US and I believe Canada aren’t usually published in the press this surely was. Please provide a link. I suspect this case as your others are just made up?

  13. What would you need a gun for anyway in Canada, hunting? With so many animals already on the endangered species list… For protection, come on really??? you live in Canada NOT the United States! And how would you feel if your child accidentally blew their head off or a neighbors kid because it wasn’t stored properly in the home?

    I kinda get your point though. Even RCMP or Armed Forces who can legally carry a gun because of what they do for a living often suffer from PTSD and sadly take their own lives

    • Oh I see. Some lives are worth defending! Hunting as we both know is very popular in Canada and hunting endangered, threatened species is punishable with large penalties. I suppose deer are endangered in Canada, and squirrles(sp.), racoon and so on. Please, make just a little sense. WN

    • Renita- sometimes people need guns for protection against bears, dangerous animals (and humans) and governments.

  14. How absolutely irresponsible of you Natasha to say such a thing. Are you one of those right to die advocates too? My mother shot herself because she had access to a gun. She had a long history of depression. My aunt works as a psychiatric nurse in a forensic unit. How would you feel riding on a greyhound bus and witnessing a mentally ill person totally decapitate a passenger in front of you?

    • My god, the violence you have witnessed in unbelievable. I really mean that. I don’t believe you. I don’t think anyone else does either. Are you trying to prove you are MI or a T refuse to say it as I believe in free speech. WN

  15. Yeah…HI… Ummm, you may want to get a new hobby..Just sayin. You have no idea how many times I was in the wrong frame of mind, and obsessed about driving to the Southside (Chicago) to buy a gun to end the pain..
    Let me just say, that a day prior I may have been jogging while laughing with a friend.. FOR ME, this bipolar moods change like the wind I have to admit, I’m grateful for the law.. Wait! Just give me a few seconds here and I’ll tell you Bipolars need guns for anxiety… LOL You get the point..

    • I think issues like this can be dealt with by 1) waiting periods and 2) having a VOLUNTARY list folks can put themselves on, that prevents them from purchasing a firearm. imo, the best prevention of suicide is a support network of caring people, carefully cultivated during the good times and then they are there for us during the bad times, just as we are there for them when they have bad times. Bad times are not the exclusive province of folks with bp, of course.

  16. @Paul Komarek,
    I am late to this posting but, now that I have read it – and the reactions to it- I feel compelled to address several points you made throughout the long history of comments. First, however, have any of your views on the matter changed over time? And what experience or authority do you have to comment on this topic? Do YOU have a mental illness? Or do you work as a lobbyist, as others have intimated? I ask because, unless you have personally experienced the pain and suffering of having a mental illness, you have 0 (ZERO) right to have any part in decisions regarding the rights of any mentally ill individual. If you HAVE struggled with mental illness and happen to feel this way I would be greatly interested in hearing why.
    Now, about statistics, you either fail to take into account those who attempt suicide, or it is an intnentional maneuver to twist meaningful information into national enquirer worthy information. You list “how many suicides were gun related deaths,” however in neither of your statistics do you mention that a MUCH, MUCH higher number of suicide attempt are made each year. Guns are simply the method most likely to result in a successful suicide attempt. Without knowing the number of people who attempt suicide the statistics you gave are meaningless hype. I don’t suppose you would advocate that the mentally ill not be given pens to write with; as we saw in “Red Eye” a bic pen can be a weapon. Or should all mentally ill individuals be forcibly stripped of hair and clothing, etc., etc., to prevent using their own hair to choke themselves, hang themselves, or use their garments in the same manner. There is not a single thing anyone can do when another person decides to take their own life. If you, and others are worried about us coming after you in our “crazed states” then it may be time to face up that you are responsible for providing your own self defense, WITHOUT infringing on any US citizen’s constitutional rights, or those of anyone, anywhere. And along with that comment I would like to add that locking up a loved one and monitoring them at all times, analyzing their every word and move, and depriving them of anything, especially the familiar, is demoralizing and dehumanizing and not an act of love. If I keep my dog, suffering lymphoma with little evidence he can survive, in pain and dying – if I keep him alive, because I love him and it would cause me suffering if he died, no matter how the medication and such affect him and his quality of life, no matter how much pain it causes him just to breathe or lift his head, how then, am I being loving? Is that love? Or is it me allowing a selfish desire to prevent my pain at losing my dog outweighing(mattering more than) the suffering of MY DOG? Replace my dog with a Chimpanzee, a human, someone on life support or in a coma, a terminally ill 92 year old, it makes no difference, you are still valuing your own comfort over those of another.

    As my last comment (I believe) I must say that your portrayal of the events at Fort Hood, or any other mass shooting and/or national tragedy are inaccurate, and yet again spun thick with propaganda, stereotyping, and ignorance. The shooter at Fort Hood may or may not have been mentally ill (though HIGHLY unlikely) but it had far less to do with his mental status than it dealt with his religious beliefs and political, etc. views. It is a well known fact that the shooter was a recent convert to Islam, and to a radical, Al Qaeda linked group of Muslims. He was heard, by numerous officers, shouting “Allah’hu Akbar” sp before he began his rampage. That terror attack was due to his radical, jihadist, interpretation of Islamic doctrine. Yet when you describe it one would believe it is just another sign that mentally ill means dangerous, and is one more way the country and military aren’t taking care of their soldiers. When you spin it so that people like me are the villains and the military are our bumbling, inept enablers I take a great deal of personal offense. As long as we are punishing people for crimes they didn’t and probably never will commit I suggest a raid on your dwelling, as I have it on good authority that white males between 15 and 100, who cite pew, and are named Paul are likely to be violent pedophiles if they have access to the Internet. So, I guess there will be someone pounding on your door to arrest you for future, possible, pedophilia. No big deal though right? And while we are at it, may as well not allow any more comments. No one has the right express their opinion; that might lead to planning and conspiring, especially among us “crazies”!

    Also, to anyone who previously expressed a desire to work for change in this country write to your senators and your representative, all of their correspondence information should be on your state’s website. More effective, you can start a petition on change.org, and at a certain date or number of signatures have it set to send to your congressman/woman. And also, if you mean it comment back and we can discuss more :)
    Thank you, Natasha, for speaking on our behalf and giving us a stronger voice in the debate on gun law.

  17. This is only my personal opinion….
    Due to the fact that some of us go off our meds for extended periods,due to extreme cases of mania resulting in
    illogical/ even ( I know in me,psychotic breaks)
    Suicide attempts.
    Violence involving ones self & others…

    Yes most definitely strict gun laws for sure!
    You can’t replace a life.

    As much as honestly there’s been moments,I’ve wished at that time on that day …
    I could blow someone’s brains out..
    During that time,I confess there would cease to be remorse for the hell this individual did.
    Yes,I’m uni I’m aware 1 wrong doesn’t make a right.
    But I’m also no liar,either,hence my feelings towards guns.

    Keep the guns where they ought to be,in the hands of the law enforcement.
    Not us,no matter how many years were stable…
    It’s just asking for a ticking time bomb in some individuals…..

    Hopefully,ppl will read my comment.
    Take it seriously,unless you want an extended jail sentence or worse your life lost..
    Or a significant other/ child.

    • You are entitled to your opinion. This is mine. Although you are entitled to your opinion you are not entitled to decide what I can and can’t own. This includes firearm. This includes the results of voting and hence enforcing your belief by proxy and having another person(s) with a gun (a police officer(s)) and so on using either violence or the threat of violence in the present to seize my firearm(s) due to your fear of what I may do in the future. Same concept as say Israel using the absurd lame logic of bombing Iran so that they do not get a bomb in the future. This is ridiculous to begin with but even more insane as Israel itself has nuclear weapons. This actually excuses real violence while putting the blame others who may commit violence. The use of actual violence on you of course is a quite legitimate reason for using yourself violence against those who out of fear or whatever the reason on you.
      Weather someone has BP or not and weather they take meds, do not take meds, go off their meds, change their meds and any other scenario is not relevant. Proactive control over others because of fear or otherwise is wrong and it is morally ok to defend yourself against such control. I am an adult and I do not abdicate my rights to others regardless of their fear of what I may or may not do. I as well maintain my right to use violence against anyone who takes any action against me. I may not act upon it immediately and In a way that would benefit the case of the individual(s) taking such action against me but I do reserve the moral right to correct the situation at any time and at my own convenience.
      I also reserve my right and any others to commit suicide whenever they please and also to stop and punish those who would intervene in this free choice regardless of weather the attempt has failed or if it is just in the planning stage. Or if the action was taken against another.
      Again we are going down the road of assigning violent tendencies to the MI. A proven wrong but irrelevant stance and a continuation with no relief in sight to for disrespect and discrimination. Even if the MI were (which they are not) more likely to commit violence, who gets to draw the line. Should men who are more violent then women be prohibited from firearm ownership but not women. How about the infinity ways we can draw line between people. And of course these lines will be drawn by others and our all knowing politicians, police officers and so on.
      “You can’t replace a life”. Some thing are more valuable then life. To me living life as dictated by others is far worse then death. If it isn’t for you then so be it. It doesn’t give you any rights regarding me. Your rights stop where mine begin. That includes firearms. It’s none of your business. I have done nothing to you and your fear of what I may do to you is of no importance to you. What if I fear you reading a certain book and it warping your mind. Do I have a right to force it from you or impose takes to have others force it from you. No, and morally their is no difference, other than one is a mans way and the others a cowards. If you want my guns so bad why no personally take them from me instead of hiring someone to do it?
      So glad at so many times we didn’t just let “law enforcement” have firearms. This blind trust in “law enforcement” is childish to say the least. Especially in the US where justice is bought like anything else. If you had been beaten and tortured like me by “law enforcement” I think you may have a different opinion.
      By the way what’s this long jail sentence or death thing about anyway? WN

      • “If you want my guns so bad why no personally take them from me instead of hiring someone to do it?”

        My favorite line. :D

        Yes, why not? Because they are too cowardly, so they want Big Brother to take the guns away.

        You are right about there being 100% chance of violence (or at least force) when the police come to take your guns but only a partial chance of violence when the gun is in your hands.

        Also recall that many people, especially out West, use guns against dangerous animals like rattlesnakes that wander into the house, or to hunt in order to feed themselves (Natives who live on piss poor reservations because the government fucks them over).

    • I understand what you’re saying, but if you periodically go off your meds–get rid of said gun, forever.
      You can’t own one and be afraid of possibly using it on yourself too..

      2 Anyone’s capable of blowing his/hers or someones else brains out–Anyone.
      3-Some of the highest suicide rates and/or depression sufferers are amongst dentists–many of them own guns
      4 Another high risk group of blowing their brains out are policemen.
      5 If you know a person long enough, you’ll see there’s SOMETHING mentally wrong w / them, and in my opinion, everyone is mentally ill in one aspect or another. (see #2)..
      There are so many other ways to kill ones self, we must remember that our firearms are there to protect us against the REALLY crazy thugs, who’d kill you for your watch.
      It’s a split second if someone is entering your home, uninvited. The police can take a few minutes.
      Longer even.

    • Sandra,
      Let me start by pointing out that I am a psychiatric registered nurse as well as an individual with type II Bipolar Disorder. Now, that having been said, the sheer fact that you are admitting to not being medication compliant scares the hell out of me. Of course you shouldn’t own a gun! But that doesn’t mean that the rest of us who do what we are supposed to do and follow our treatment regimen to the letter shouldn’t! I have been stable for 20 years. I was diagnosed 20.5 yrs ago. That says something. We were lucky enough to find a great combination that worked right away. It helps that my practitioner is a master psychopharmacological clinician. In other words, he went back to school for three yes after he graduated with his initial degree to get certified in medication management and pharacology. Very few practitioners have this certification, but it makes a big difference when you are trying to tweak meds. Now I am not saying we haven’t had to make some changes along the way. But, they have been swift and to the point. As a result, I have remained stable the whole time. So, in response to your response, please do not punish the rest of us for your transgressions. Not all of us like to go off of our meds. As a matter of fact, most type II’s won’t because the depression is unbearable. Why would we want to suffer that? And, while hypomania can be fun, I guess, it depends on how it manifests itself. In my case, yes I have more energy, but what it does the most is make me shop uncontrollably. Well, now that’s fun. NOT!!! Putting my family and my mother into bankruptcy is not my idea of fun! In one year I ran up 50,000 dollars on my mother’s Amex card. Now I am trying to pay it off. Some retirement I’ve left her with. This disease sucks! Now tell me again, why would I want to go off my meds??? Being manic is fun why??? It is harmless why??? I have hundreds of patients every year who come into my unit manic and the all tell me how much fun it is until they get stabilized and realize the damage they have caused. Then they just shake their heads and cry. So, Sandra, tell me again why you think going off your meds is such a good idea?

      In closing, I ask only one thing from you. If you chose to continue to be so irresponsible as to not be compliant with your treatment, that is your business. Choosing to own a gun is mine. I am compliant. I am safe, I am stable, my practitioner advocated for me to be able to get a gun license. I am a proud gun owner. And, no one is going to take that right away from me. No one.

    • I think most of the time, comments like these come from people who have never owned firearms and do not want anyone to own firearms, generally speaking. The truth is, anyone can snap at any time and folks just don’t want to acknowledge the uncomfortable truth that the violence is within us. All of us. Not just people who have been labeled up.

      Folks with bipolar who are not stable and having suicidal ideation should either ask a relative hold their firearms for them until they are doing better, or don’t own any. Those who are suicidal, it is THEIR RISK. OTHER people choose to climb Everest or go cave diving, for a person with bp who has suicidal ideation when depressed, their Everest is living a “normal” life while experiencing extraordinary depression. Others should not decide their life for them. Folks think it’s ok to control us because we have a label, but they don’t tell others they can’t climb mountains or drive race cars because those folks haven’t been labeled up.

  18. Pingback: Stuck on #Guncontrol and #Mentalillness | Stuck on Social Work

  19. I’m confused as to the nature of your “brainwashing tecqunique” as to what you want other people to believe. The Indians were a very violent group of people. Their teenagers were hung by sinew with bone hooks in their back, and yet many if not most were passive people. The only people that become aggressive are those that had their personalities destroyed. To say that one should “investigate” everything and everybody is … Most people who attack random people are very weak people ie passive to begin with, so if you want to look at that, it’s probably over 97% of the population. Sorry, but you won’t find your answers.

    • ted, i am more afraid of our government with weapons of mass destruction then i am of someone with mi with a gun. people who want to kill themselves or others do not need guns. your analogy of what indians are like is offensive~as if they are different then me or you. indians are people, keep race, creed, and color out of this.

  20. I don’t have a history of violence, but I have depression, and I know I should not own a gun. Guns make suicide easy and quick, and they have the highest rate of fatality. There should not be guns in a depressed person’s household, and I don’t think that’s an unfair discrimination.

    • I do feel for people who fear their own actions when they suffer from suicidal ideation. I have struggled myself. Nevertheless, I disagree that others should decide FOR ME what are the risks I should take in my life. Those who are not in favor of owning a firearm when depressed, don’t buy a firearm! I don’t think it’s wise to keep firearms around when a person is suicidal, either. There is a big assumption in the statement that those who are suicidal are perpetually so, which is a minority of those with mental problems. Relatives can always hold the firearms for someone if they are not feeling well.

      Usually, folks who are completely against guns are city people and are not aware that firearms are a necessary tool for rural people. I am a rural person. Woodchucks invade my large, rural garden (the size of a suburban lot or bigger) and in one day can ruin 10 or 20 cabbages.The next day, they get the rest of the row. The next day, they start on another row. I may as well not have a garden if I do not have a firearm to shoot a woodchuck. In fact, in my area, farmers market would not exist except for that people shoot the woodchucks which are everywhere. You can’t fence them out – I tried. Many times. Nobody has figured out a way. I guess there would be corn since that’s grown in large fields. . So it’s just too bad for those people who like my cabbage and peppers at farmers market? Am I allowed to earn a living? (It is a hobby income for me, and not all that much, but many people primarily earn their income doing this, and several I know have serious mental illness. Iam considering doing this as a job and ditching disability altogether but not sure if it’s viable for me).

      I also deer hunt, as do maybe 10% of the people who live in my state. My husband and I save hundreds and hundreds of dollars on our grocery bill because of this (we do our own butchering) and our diet is healthier, too. Firearms are a part of rural life. My psychiatrist and therapist do not have any issue with me owning firearms. think the truth is, those who think folks with depression should not own guns are not in favor of firearms ownership in general. I also notice that virtually all who have these beliefs do not live in rural areas where hunting is the dominant lifestyle and a person is virtually an outcast if they don’t hunt and fish. 10% in the state hunt, but in my area, it’s more like 50%.

      Finally, even if I agreed that a suicidal person should not own a firearm, do you realize what is happening in CA? They are sending SWAT teams out to invade peoples’ homes and take their firearms away! What a welcome home from a voluntary stay in the mental hospital because you are so depressed you had been thinking of ending your life. Better if a psychiatrist or social worker (discharge planning) has a conversation with you about having someone take your firearms for awhile and store them, and see how things go. I believe this is happening in NY also. Does someone deserve the SWAT team because they are a depressed middle aged lady? The only way to enforce this is to put we mental patients in a database, right along with the felony criminals. Is this any kind of good idea?

      The only way to keep a suicidally depressed person totally safe is to put them in a bare, padded cell and chain them in 4 point restraints at all times until they die of their despair at such imprisonment. That’s how it used to be, to a large extent, plus burlap sack clothes. Do we really want to go back to that, in order to “keep mental patients safe?” If a person looks at Wikipedia, they can see that in countries with few firearms, suicide rates are no lower than in the US – people just use other methods.

      If society cared about us, there would be funding for better treatment instead of nothing but pills that don’t work well or at all for most of us. The reason they want to put us in a database is NOT for our own good – it’s to keep track of a million depressed grandmas in order to prevent 1 angry young man from killing masses of innocent people. It serves society to scapegoat us, apparently. Make no mistake, if we mental patients are all identified and put in this guns database along with the criminals, it won’t go well for us in the long run. Next, some young men will mow people down with cars, and we lose our driving rights. In some states, a mental patient needs their psychiatrist to sign off that they are fit to drive, no kidding. So if you have major depression and don’t want to see a psychiatrist, you either lie or you are FORCED to get an MD to sign off. Coercion. When the sick, hating young men make pressure cooker bombs to attack the world, like a young man here in MN was working on, then what? I can’t do home canning of my produce anymore? No, then the only way to deal with that, if the scapegoating continues, is to have people driving around in white vans and involuntarily treating us with antipsychotics, under outpatient commitment.

      Keeping track of mental patients in order to deny them firearms (in general, not talking about people who have a history of violence against others, which is a crime) is not for our good. It is for scapegoating.

      • cats, this is about the best thing i have ever read on people with mental illness and why they should keep their guns. you really put a human face to it and i hope you go out and make your voice heard, you are an amazing ally and advocate. thank you!

    • you know yourself and you know YOU should not have a gun, but you also know you have a mi. I too have a mental illness and when i am suicidal, a gun is not the way i will go. i am safe with a gun in my home. i have my cleaner plan thank you.
      you cannot compare all people with mi to you. we are all different.
      i do not want to be lumped into a bunch. “all people are xyz”. they are isms; did that not happen too long ago with (clear my throat) black people, native americans, jews . . . (to name a few most popular in history)? think of uganda and how they go through villages with machetes, no guns needed.
      how bout we just lock up all the mi people in warehouses! oh ya, we did that already too. take away their rights cause they MIGHT do something to hurt themselves or other . . .oh wait we can still do that!
      I am more afraid of my neighbor who has a gun but has not been diagnosed with a mi. it is a dream world to think that taking away guns will stop violence. bad guys will always find a way to kill.
      like you and your knowledge to know that you are not safe with a gun around; personally i think most people with mi are more thinking then the rest of the community most of the time; i have less fear of the outed peeps then the ones too cooool to go in and get help!!!

    • Not forcing you not to own a gun. That’s your choice. My choice is to own them. Because you think something is reasonable for me it doesn’t make it so. It isn’t your choice to make those decisions. As well you do appear to want to force on those of us with depression to not own them.
      I’m sure if and when you tried to remove a gun from someone with MI by force (which is what laws do) and they used it to stop you from using this immediate threat of violence (or violence itself) you might use this as proof of why they shouldn’t have had the firearms to begin with, as well as the excuse that they were MI as a justification that their life wasn’t that important to begin with (the second part done by innuendo). Am I correct? WN

      • I overall do agree that in general, if someone is extremely depressed, it’s not usually in their best interest to keep a handgun around. I have had worries about people who do concealed carry, and they have major depression or bipolar. But I don’t think the law should be involved unless the person has a criminal history. And mental patients can get stalked like anyone else, and then have a good reason for concealed carry. I forgot to mention, but maybe did a few weeks ago when there was some other horrible mass shooting, that if I call the sheriff, it would take 20-30 minutes to get to my rural home. I don’t keep weapons for home defense, and mostly not in favor of it, but I am not a victim of armed robbery and who am I to say what someone needs to feel safe? If I lived in a dangerous neighborhood, there’s a good chance I’d have a different opinion. People with very severe mental illnesses who are sick all the time usually don’t have enough money to buy a firearm, I’ve noticed. Most people I know with serious mental illness are on SSI and can barely afford to pay their cable bill and don’t have cars. Luckily in my area, despite their poverty, they live in safe housing and there is little crime.

        • Cats, I have one question. What’s the difference between someone suicidal have a gun in the house or having a concealed permit. If the pt. is to prevent suicide most are going to do it indoors anyway and not outside. Just thinking? WN

          • Oh, sorry, that wasn’t clear at all. It’s just that the folks I’ve known who have concealed carry permits have their firearm with them or near them nearly all the time, and are a lot more preoccupied with that, some of that preoccupation by necessity (have to keep the firearm under control at all times). Everyone I know who has a handgun that did not get a concealed carry permit (now that they are widely available to nearly everyone) just keeps in in their gun safe for target shooting or trapping or something. So it’s not constantly in their face. I do think constantly handling a handgun that you have for home defense or whatever sometimes makes you brood over the gun and what it can be used for (your fears, for one, and I suspect suicide, too), just as using your grandma’s china at holidays makes you remember her, or putting pictures of your spouse in your wallet makes you think of them, etc. Now those objects can sort of fade into the background with familiarity over time, and maybe that happens with the concealed carry folks who carry in their purse or a holster, but I doubt it. Because they must be preoccupied to keep the firearm under control at all times from kids or unauthorized users, theft etc.

            • thanks for that clarification and insight cats. i think you have a very good point here. the people i know who have guns without concealed permits are not as scary as the people i know who carry all the time with the permits to conceal.

            • Yes, familiarity does breed contempt. People should be aware of that in all things! Your quite right on all of that in my opinion, although sometimes as the pendulum swings the experience can change the dynamic. Like who is the better driver. The one who is just beginning and overly cautious or the one who has been driving years and uses one hand and texts? More at work but generally I agree.
              When I first got my carry permit I thought it was just cool, then I quickly realized I was most likely safer as a rule without it. For a couple major reasons. First, I was far more likely to go to jail or be shot by police by using it in self defense then taking a good beating, stabbing or even shooting etc. Second, those with more power or who stick out generally make bigger targets for those trying to prove themselves. I’m a big guy. 6’4″ 295 now (put some weight on) and have been the target of many a drunk little guy with napoleon complex in a bar. This includes police and the the DA, judge, jury etc. after the fact. It’s all about weighing the odds concerning the law and how it REALLY works, your perception of threat, where you are etc. This is usually quite difficult to calculate. This is why I decided generally it’s safer to carry a firearm when not threatened then when I am. I really think the threat is more from the police (in most cases) then from a bad guy in the shadows (in my case. If I were a small woman with two or three kids I’m sure I would calculate the odds differently. WN

    • I am so stressed out about this whole deal. I do have a history of mental illness and some bouts of extremely violent behavior. If something makes me mad I blow up. I have recently been denied my right to own a gun because I mentioned to mental health professionals that I often feel like going on a long killing spree and was actively involved in seeking out people to kill at random. Since I have been denied permission to own a gun, I have been going to the shooting range and renting a rifle and venting out my stress on paper targets. I shoot them full of holes. I shoot out the eyes, shoot large sections of the belly and chest area. I have declared jihad on paper targets. I have been using a Ruger 10/22 carbine rifle, however, recently I have discovered a range in New Jersey that rents AK 47’s and a Draganov. I will be traveling over 50 miles to go to this range next week. Since I have been going to the range my attitude towards life and living has dramatically changed and I no longer feel the urge to kill people. Shooting is more therapy than any medication that has ever been forced into my system. :)

      • You are very stressed out. This may just be and is a very normal situation for human beings. This doesn’t make you mentally ill.
        Many people, in fact almost all at times feel like killing others. Very few people will make it a year or so past the time they are able to speak without harmlessly saying they are going to kill someone. The difference between those who are labeled violent and those who aren’t normally is that those who are honest about these commom thoughts and those who are not. Another case of punishing those who tell the truth and rewarding those who lie. This also is another reason that makes the practice of psychology and psychiatry a bit of a scam as legally they must report these violent thoughts and not put them into perspective. It encourages lies and points the legal barrel at those individuals speaking the truth and rewarding those who are lying. Anyone wishing to get REAL help to begin with unless wishing to be imprisoned (usually in solitary confinement (torture) in either a jail cell or a locked mental institution would never ever mention those thoughts. Hence no real help given. No Catholic confessional type deal here. The “counselor” (really just an agent of the state just punishes the patient (now a criminal suspect). This same patient (suspect) will learn then to quickly lie regardless of the actual level or breath of intent if any which normally is zero. This being independent of the initial statements of the patient. Now really a criminal in the level of treatment by the state. Proof of this is they can longer own a firearm. Just by voicing a thought almost all human beings have had.
        Many psychological therapists years ago promoted something similar to shooting at targets. Like hitting others with pillows, punching bags and many, many other ways and I suspect some still do. As well I am sure some even suggested target practice itself.
        I didn’t know Ruger made a carbine version of the 10/22 and very much doubt with the strict firearms laws in New Jersey you will be able to rent an AK-47 as an AK-47 is a REAL assault rifle and not a semi-auto rifle of similar dimension and design. The type law enforcement, news outlets, anti-gun advocates and so on misrepresent to try to support their position, but commit a lie in the process. Like lies on the true impact of marijuana etc. it may work temporarily on the misinformed and children but when the truth is discovered the duped no longer trust those who lie to them.
        I think medication and maybe therapy with a “real” therapist, as in an honest one working for you and not the state may help you more then shooting.
        If you really want to enjoy shooting move to PA right near you and you can get all the guns you wish. Telling mental health officials your real passing thoughts will get you nowhere in PA as well. Nor anywhere else in the US either. WN

    • “There should not be guns in a depressed person’s household, and I don’t think that’s an unfair discrimination.”

      Speak for yourself. As Will said, your rights end where mine begin. If I suffer from depression (bipolar II, actually, but that’s besides the point), I am a person just like anyone else. I should be able to own a firearm like anyone else. Just because I had a diagnostic label slapped on my medical record does not make me less of a human being, undeserving of the same rights as others. The implication of your comment is disgusting and misguided.

      On the subject of suicide: People should be allowed to do whatever they want with their bodies and lives, so long as it does not infringe on the rights of others. That includes ending their life if they choose to. How can you possibly claim to control your life if you do not have the power to end it by your own will? I’m not saying go blow your brains out, I’m just saying suicide is an individual’s issue, not something that other people should concern themselves with. If I choose to end my life, it is my choice. It makes no difference to you, so you should have no control over whether I follow through with that choice or not.

      Once more, if you want to void your rights because of a title, go ahead. Just speak for yourself, and not the rest of us that value our freedom.

      • Absolutely, Chris. Even though those who after the fact decide to sort out motivation, morality etc. I and you (assumption) and anyone who has never been proven to be violent (if you can even put much stock in who has or hasn’t been violent according to our biased and non-merit based political only legal and judicial system) have as much right to own firearm(s) as we do mac&cheese or dolls for our children. As I have stated ad nauseam someones fear of what I “may” do to myself and/or them is of no bearing to me in deciding what I consider right or wrong, or in whether considering my rights or anyone else’s. The pt. is that someones fear of what I or you may do should never be a consideration in determining what my or anyones rights are in the here and now and the real world are. I do not willingly lay down my rights as to benefit exercise’s in statistics by those who would wish to experiment with my future and theirs. I also maintain my right to use violence to defend this right as well as others to maintain myself as a freethinking free man. Although the odds are not in my favor and defending my rights in this way may be counter productive to my survival, I retain moral supremacy here and will exercise them as I see fit. I also suffer from BP2 and do not in anyway abdicate my rights to act as a free man in anyway to anyone else. The thing here that may shock many who may not be able to think much out of the box is that for the most part am an extreme liberal in the labels of the day in most issues of the day. The thing is I decide what my rights are and not others. When you start deciding what my rights are – I get to do the same for you. I as well get to decide what numbers to use, how to interpret them as well as who and where to enforce then on. If it’s all about politics one way or another and who gets to decide what’s good/bad, profitable/un-profitable in regard to others then I get that right if I or others like me gain power. Highly unlikely if not a fantasy, yet I reserve the right to limit the rights of others who would limit mine on their fear of what may happen and not what actually has. WN

  21. Could someone tell me where the statistic of 30,000 deaths by guns and 19,000 of those deaths suicide, is cited? Thanks.

      • Will, I know it’s sad, but those are the numbers. I really agree with so much of what’s been written here. It’s stigma vs safety vs rights vs risks vs self-identity vs security. It’s a hard call between protection and support.

        • Thanks Paul. That’s interesting and REALLY shocking. We had 2272 suicides in 2011 and of those 135 were suicide by gun. We also have a smaller population and different gun laws. Thanks for the reference. Wondering if the stats are different for rural/farming areas than for urban.

          • Kathe, don’t take Paul seriously he works for very questionable “foundations” and changes his numbers as they suit him. Research you own numbers and their validity but don’t use “Paul” as a source. He has a different agenda. WN

            • Thank you. I did checkout the foundation and couldn’t find any reference pro or anti gun control. But i am only looking at the surface. I have since looked at many CDC generated sites and recognise this is an extremely complex issue to make blanket statements about. It’s a dangerous and futile policy to deny any member of the community rights because of any attribute. Having a diagnosis of mental illness is not a reason to deny anyone anything. Re: people with mental illness not being left alone to prevent them killing themselves, I i knew a man who caused himself fatal head injuries locked in a empty room, while his caregiver took a 15 min. break. He wanted to die and his suffering was prolonged by people who wanted to save themselves anguish.

            • Yes, agree Kathe. A feel good no risk phone call does no one any good. In the US this is many, many times followed by a couple weeks in solitary confinement in a county jail. This helps no one and causes suicide. Of course the person who made the phone call is no where to be found at that pt. Some real help wold be appreciated, like helping the homeless with food, money, voting for it etc. A phone call just is too easy. WN

        • Which number is sad Paul the 19K number or the 38K one? Or was the 38K number an exaggerated number to shock just to prove your pt. Personally I believe the number is much higher in reality and even if it was 200k it doesn’t justify discrimination or limiting the rights of the MI. Which foundation Paul? Who pays you and what is your motivation? WN

        • Never forget Paul that when you lobby for a change in public policy you also lobby for FORCE being used against those who you disagree with. It doesn’t mean because you don’t see the dirty little details that force isn’t being used. Be assured it is and if you campaign for it and it is misused you are part of the problem. I think you in it for the money so this is really meant for the misguided not the immoral. WN

          • Will. All of the numbers are sad. There were 38,000 suicides in US in 2010 (all causes) http://www.sprc.org/basics/about-suicide . Suicides comprised about 19,000 of 30,000 US gun deaths in 2010 (the Pew Foundation link above). My concern is about guns in the hands of people who are suicidal where the risk is very high. And I know this is a government force area, and needs to be limited, and that no public policy solution is ever perfect. I always choose, and advocate for increased safety over theoretical gun rights. People differ on the value they place on guns in society. You are free to disagree with me. But I still can’t think of a time when it would ever be responsible to give a suicidal person a justification to acquire a deadly weapon. Is there some point where you would take forceful action to keep someone safe? What would you be willing to do, and when? This is not meant as a challenge to you, just as a point that people are sometimes forced to confront. I am all for having self-protection or sport or whatever, but at some point, for some people, there’s just too much risk.

            • When I looked it up, it appeared that in countries where firearms are not readily available, the suicide rates are the same and people use other means. Besides, isn’t it offensive that you “normal” people want to keep those of us with depression safe from ourselves, as if we are children? It costs a lot of money to buy a firearm and most people with serious mental illness do not have the money. In addition, for a handgun, many states have waiting periods. It’s always assumed that those commiting suicide with a firearm are people who have been labeled with a serious problem, or been in a hospital before, but I really doubt that’s so. I suspect it’s older, divorced men who have never seen a counselor before are your primary statistic. Besides that, in all these shootings, folks usually take someone else’s firearm. So mental patients should be treated as less than, put in a database like criminals, because it might help prevent a suicide. On the other hand, the misery of being labeled with that upside down black triangle in the federal records might cause more hopelessness and suicides, don’t you think? Do you think those of us with mental labels are here writing comments because this is unimportant to us?

            • First Paul you still haven’t answered the different numbers you have give or your “foundations” and their tax shelters. This in itself points to you not having a point of view other than that supporting those shelters and the money involved. Repeatedly citing numbers any of us can create and cite doesn’t answer the questions I’ve asked and your different conflicting responses. maybe admit you gave conflicting numbers and we can continue.
              The gun rights are not theoretical for those who own and use firearms. They may be to you but not to others. It appears your proactive stance on prohibition of said firearms is far more theoretical (not in the very real violence or threat of such used on those whom you and your supporters would use on those who actually posses these firearms or attempt to posses them).
              I am not only free to disagree with you but am also on the moral high ground when it comes to you attempting to limit my rights or those others with MI who choose to possess and use firearms. This is not one of those issues where the majority has a right to rule anymore then the majority has a right to decide what religion one has or lack thereof or in so many other areas of personal rights. In shot it is none of your business.
              No one is asking you to put a firearm in the hands of anyone. They are again asking you to mind your business as they mind theirs. Action breeds action. We don’t need your paternalism and we don’t need you to tell us as well what to do in other areas of our lives.
              As I’ve said at length to people with similar opinions to you. You seem to believe it is OK to use force against another when you fear they will do something to themselves or others. Do you as well abdicate that authority to me and others when they feel the same? Of course not. You feel superior to others and YOU must have control. I’m not giving it to you.
              There is NO point at which I give you those rights.

              Will

            • Hi Paul, I wonder what the percentage of suicides are from drug overdose, medication overdose, knife cutting, or other means. Taking guns away from suicidal people does not stop someone who is determined to end their life. This is a very insane and out of control society and it is getting drastically worse by the day. I am sure this law is meant to protect some people, but there are many other means of killing besides a gun

    • My initial post was asking for clarification of the statistics I found re gun deaths. I’m doing a subject at university and have been looking at gun deaths in rural communities. I think at this point I should state that I have a MI and have had since age 20, when I was hospitalised for 6 months in a locked ward of an older 70’s style institution. Fortunately my symptoms have been effectively managed for fairly long periods so I married,had 3 children, and am still studying. During my life time of having mental illness I have been adversely affcted many times by people trying to “protect” me and some of these events had horrific consequences. Through these actions or inaction a medical condition was ignored and I came close to death three times and admitted to the intensive care ward of the hospital. I don’t want to bore you with my 40 year saga of the abuses to be found in the mental health sysytem except for a comment my ex-psychiatrist made last year. I was very suicidal and he told me that if I killed myself my children would NEVER recover, never get over it, never forgive me. And I immediately realised that there is a scale with my incurable sufferring on one side and the suffering I may cause others on the other side and it is always tipped in their favour. I think that was the final straw that made me decide that no-one has the right to emotionally blackmail me or place any impediment in my way when I find that I have suffered enough. Before I am a person with a mental illness I am a citizen of my country and have exactly the same rights as every other citizen. If it is legal for my neigbout to buy a gun why would it be illegal for me to buy one? It’s because paternalism and a belief that I can be “helped” (that society has not failed to keep me alive regardless of poverty and lack of adequate care) and a legal sysyem that presumes what one would use a gun for. It reflects the scales of my suffering being measured against the fear, ignorance and need to control of the state and others.

      • You’ll get no real numbers from “Paul” I’m sure you know his agenda by now.
        May I ask what country you are from with the numbers you quoted? Or is one of the US states?
        I think all of us with MI have heard the what would you family do comment. As you stated it’s another way to blame the MI and again blame them for their illness. Only an asshole would ask that of a terminal cancer patient thinking of ending their life. Anything to make our lives worse is appropriate to these people. We are also “uppidy” for voicing our opinions.
        Sadly none of us have any rights. Those are an illusion and must always be fought for.
        Regardless of any numbers anyone gives you. You have the same “rights” as anyone. You although usually not wise in those situation have the “right” to keep all your property, including your firearms. You also have a “right” to shoot yourself with these guns if you can find no other way out. Remember they can always use force to take your “rights” from you, but barring torture and other thinks akin to it you can usually keep your integrity and your beliefs. Those include not being dehumanized by these laws and ideas. Fight the good fight. WN

  22. I am a psychiatric RN and a type II bipolar patient. I also happen to have the unfortunate situation of living in the most restrictive state in the country regarding this issue, NY. They have passed the law that if you have ever so much as sniffed a pill that is associated with mental health, you can give up your chances of ever owning a gun. In addition, once the law passed, I know of several people who were forced to turn in their weapons and permits to the police because of their diagnosis’. Not only should this be illegal as it infringes on our basic rights, it reminds me of living in a police state. I was working in Vermont recently as a travel nurse and the only thing I needed there to get my pistol permit and a lovely glock was a Vermont address and drivers license. Now perhaps they are TOO lenient but NYS has taken it WAY too far!!! My husband is also bipolar, but he is also a decorated Marine, and was a corrections officer for many years. But do you think that they will let him get a pistol permit? Only when it is convenient for them, do they let him carry a weapon. AND he is a sharp shooter!!! Two years ago, a young kid from “the hood” came out to a birthday party for one of the football players and fellow honor students on my son’s team in the area where we live, (Which is in the country, but is the most affluent township in the county), and started after being asked to leave once, came back with friends and weapons. He almost murdered my son by stabbing him multiple times in the back. All my son was trying to do was to help his friend who had already been stabbed back into the house. My son had a full ride to play football at Buffalo and will now never play again. This kid only got 8 months in prison. You see, he is obviously in need of help with a mental illness, as he told police that he woke up that morning and decided he wanted to see what it was like to murder someone. He just happened to pick my son out at random. It doesn’t have to be a gun to be lethal either as you can see here. My son lived by seconds and millimeters. God saved his life. BUT, as a result, I want to be armed. How do I know that this little punk is not going to try and come back to finish the job? So to have this state tell me that because I have a mental illness I cannot own a gun is ridiculous. Something has to give and we need to fight. Our basic rights are being taken away and our constitution was written for a purpose. Let us stand up and fight for it!

    • Hi Jennifer, i remember that story on the news~~i am so sorry to hear about your son and the ordeal your family had to and will continue to have to deal with. i agree with you, we need to fight, to stand up against the people who are taking our rights away. but tell us all, how do we do that? Who do we write letters to? how do we get petitions signed? i get this kind of stuff all the time for other things so how do we get people to not be afraid of the people with mental illness?

    • That sucks. What constitutes a MI anyway? A few trips to the p-doc for insomnia? A year of advice or help for a severely grieving patient? A phobic patient? Afraid of spiders, ugly people? A soldier w/ PTSD? Is he/she a lost cause or a threat to mankind forever? Are you considered mentally disturbed b/c you fear for your sons’ life? Are people with road rage considered crazy? It’s so out of hand with these damn labels for the human condition, I could wretch.
      As a matter of fact I think I will.
      ok, I’m back-
      It’s time to draw the line, unite and fight back. Write your legislatures, congressman, who ever you need to, to retain our constitutional rights.
      Either that or dig those knives out of the trash.

    • Yes. It’s the post New Town, save the world greedy, no real morality, sold to the highest bidder, wealthy, power hungry, perfect, well connected Charles Schummer or the like isn’t it? Live close to rural NY and people their wanted to leave the state of New York as they should. Love NYC but has zero to do with rural NY.
      Don’t agree about the assumption of mental illness. Claiming after someone commits a violent or other act that they are mentally ill doesn’t make it so. It also contributes to the stereotype. As well don’t think going overseas to kill people so the US gov. or others can increase profits or otherwise isn’t mental illness or otherwise. Sometimes killing is just killing. Nothing more or less. Sadly I believe “science” or more correctly those who claim to be doing it believe morality it is based on what the majority are doing and use that as a baseline of what is considered sane and insane. See Hitlers Germany (sorry as everyone uses this) as the most famous example. Murder is murder regardless of the color of one clothes or the religion etc. of the victims. Same goes in reverse and it also applies to “US and the US”.
      So sorry about your son and hope he is doing well. If what you say is true and he almost killed your son and got only 8 mos. (which is insane). I would also never feel safe again. The reverse is true where I live as having a joint will get you more time in jail then that.
      Jennifer if it truly was a random act of violence I wouldn’t worry too much about him coming after you. If something else I would be worried. Also, you should be able regardless of what others say be able to have a gun if you haven’t hurt any one for no reason. You can believe the gov. and all the other politicians etc. in NY who passed those laws are well protected. You can COUNT on that. For the most part those who gain power will attempt to disarm those who don’t have it. It almost guarantees their hold on power. It’s more complicated of course but it is the general rule. Especially for the con artist politicians, most of which are.
      As well I don’t believe god saved his life. I think it was just chance as he could just as well never have been hurt or killed. Which of the Katrina people were saved by god and which were killed by him. Doesn’t that imply the ones killed and hurt were responsible and those saved special and deserved to be?
      In short, you and your husband deserve to be able to have firearms and it is your right. The assholes who are preventing it are morally responsible if anything happens to you or your family that could have been prevented if you and/or your husband had had the protection you had when it had or does happen. They care of course only about votes/money and are irrelevant to a moral discussion. Just my opinion. WN

  23. @will nist–(there was no reply line) No, I don’t think we should all sit around and let people be force fed, or tied to a chair 24/7, or made to take meds that they otherwise wouldn’t touch, ignored or left to cry. That’s just cruel.
    This countries laws re the MI are out dated and even torturous.
    Even tho Dr. Kevorkian helped humans that were sound of mind, that decided to take their own lives with his help–they imprisoned him, punished him. And why? These were dying people w/ illness’ a dog shouldn’t suffer. . They knew what awaited them-and they wanted and deserved a peaceful death. What’s wrong w/ that?
    Many countries have allowed euthanasia for years now.
    I don’t know the answers nor can I speak or the terminally insane, but off the top of my head, serial killers or paedophiles should be the first lot to leave his planet on the first Monday of each month.
    Less murdered children is a good start.

    • Sorry Stevie, it was a question to PK. I as well could not get the reply (question) to line up and reply. I wish Natasha could fix this problem It happens all the time and I’ve asked her. Maybe she doesn’t know how to fix it . I don’t know. WN

      • Oh! That’s ok. I stand by what I said, anyway. You know how us crazies are. We love to hear ourselves think..

        xoxxoxoxox’s

        • As you should. Don’t know much I disagree with you about. I will tell you If i do though. Just the way I am. Spent a month in Europe many years ago and had only one tape bought in Germany (yes, tape) of Fleetwood Mac. Never got tired of it and still don’t. WN

          • a tape! My name can cause so much buzz.
            – maybe it was a sign that you’d bump into a ‘stevie nicks’ -many years down the road.
            In any case, glad you liked that group, oddly enough ..so do I.

  24. I have noticed a new strategy being pushed hard in the attempt to roll back the clock and take away the freedoms of people with mental labels. It’s a fake” help the mental patients” type argument.

    The argument is that people with mental illness should be PROTECTED from OURSELVES by not allowing us to own firearms (suicide risk) is not an honest argument. Why? Do a quick googling. The suicide rate is just as high in countries where virtually no one owns a firearm. Why do people argue that “the mentally ill” (whoever that means) should be protected from ourselves? Because they don’t want us to own firearms, so they make a fake statement based on nothing so they can seem as if they are concerned about us, when in fact, they are afraid of us and want to take away our rights in order to feel safe. But it’s a false safety, because we mental patients, former mental patients, psychiatric survivors and so on. . . we are not the ones generating most of the violence in our society. We’re the scapegoats.

    If the public in general gave a crap about us, the mental health services would be more helpful (instead of drugs drugs drugs and nothing else which is no good for anybody) and folks in the system would be nicer, instead of (often) borderline abusive and coercive. If society would quit rejecting mental patients all the time, maybe a lot fewer people would suicide. Social isolation breeds suicidal ideation in a lot of folks.

    The issue isn’t suicide. There seem to be multiple things going on, none good for us. It’s scapegoating, so politicians can seem like they are doing something, when they are not and maybe there is nothing that can be done in the short term. It’s also about controlling people who have been labeled with a more or less serious mental illness. The other issue is making sure nobody with any sort of label can own a firearm, as a dishonest way to accomplish massive gun control. In favor of gun control or not, it doesn’t matter. Most mental patients I know can’t even afford a firearm. The thing is, it’s not good for us to be used as scapegoats for any sort of political strategy.

    • soo very well said~!all of this! a friend of mines dad was diagnosed with AIDS and shot himself. maybe the next group of people to take guns from will be people who have a deadly disease.
      i still think suicide should be legal as it is in Sweden. It’s the kid in me who thinks, “The more they tell me ”you CAN’T”, the more i want it”.

    • It’s just a case of the white mans burden. Nothing more nothing less. Nefarious and dishonest paternalism spearheaded by the worst of politicians (most). Sorry Cats you make such good pts. and I would like to respond so much more but my unworthy, unacceptable illness is getting the best of me. I have a very good very sick friend who I give great deference to regarding his illness and it tires me that he can’t do the same for me even though I almost gave him a kidney. Couldn’t because I was bi-polar. Another example of paternalism. I asked them was it because I was incompetent and they said no. I them said if I’m not incompetent them by definition I must be competent to donate the kidney. Then an argument entailed and I was told “this is why”, I said what. They said “because of the way you act”. I said that is circular reasoning and another invalid for of argument in which I wish I could remember. If you do please tell me, I just can’t recall what it means to accuse someone after the fact in a discussion of something never previously mentioned and then use that as a pt. in proving the argument you began. WN

  25. On this subject, our opinions matter about as much as a new recipe for hummus.
    I’ve been a gun owner long before I was insane, and I also carry a foid card. All together there are more than 5 guns in our home. Two are loaded at all times.
    Have I ever felt like using one? Of course! I’m insane remember?
    But then I’ve often felt like walking in front of a speeding bus, or driving my car into a brick wall.
    But, so far, so good.
    Whether or not a mentally ill person can or should own a gun is almost a rhetorical subject. We, as persons of the bipolar persuassion, or of other insane titles, in all degrees of insanity can’t always be mentally measured. One might argue that the more sane you are, (on the sane scale) -the less likely you are to be a gun owner. Afterall, you might kill some one!
    Well duh, -that’s the idea. Truth is, if you want to kill yourself, you don’t need a gun. You know that.

    If you want to kill some Big Buck who shows up in your bedroom at 1:00 am naked, holding an axe, now you’re talking.
    Sane or insane, all you really need is the cash. Any arguments to the morality of ownership, are mere conjecture. I can’t determine who can or should have one, as many of us can hide our illness’.
    As long as guns are available, the normies the the ex-normies, and the lifers, will buy or get them some how.
    All you really need is the money. Ex-con? Then gun shows can be your cup of Liptons. Catch someone in the parking lot, and you’ll have a wide array of fire arms to choose from, in the trunks of many vehicles.
    Felons welcome.
    .xoxoxxoxox’s

    • you are so right stevie nicks, we do not need a gun to kill ourselves. i have never considered a gun to be my first choice to hurt myself or anyone else. the only time i think a gun could have been of help to me was when my (now X) husband (he is not diagnosed mi HA!) beat the crap out of me and sent me to a shelter with my baby. but I am the dangerous one because i am MI. seems to me, statistics have proven that most MI people are the victims of violence, not the other way around. husband, cops, boyfriends, etc., seem to think it is ok to mistreat mi people.
      even if i had had a gun at the time, i don’t think i would have killed my husband because there is something about being mentally ill~~deep inside, even though i know it is wrong, i think i deserve the abuse and beatings. i am used to it and it gives me an odd comfort. i could let someone beat me or i could do some other self harm instead. if i want to hurt myself, if i want to hurt someone else, i could do that with the numerous weapons i have (not guns), i sure don’t need a gun, BUT will i hurt someone who is hurting me? not likely, because i am MI

      • Years ago when I was a clear headed, functioning, working woman, I had a husband who had a short and nasty temper, especially when I disagreed w/ him- (about anything). Not anyone else, just me.
        There was a gun in the house, I knew it, but never thought of using it on him, and our screaming fights often, got very violent. Walls shook. Paint shook.
        Early on, I had watched my late sister get the crap beat out of her for 8 years, by her cowardly x husband.. She had very little self esteme. Actually none, in retrospect.
        Not me. I’m holding my ground, I’ll show her how to stand up and be brave, when I get married..
        While drivng w/ my husband one day, I answered him in a simple negative, and BANG–his fist swung over and hit my left eye within a second. I still had all of my wits about me, while I held some kleenex over my left eye crying my ass off. Wha’d I do??
        I waited for the next stop light and pulled back my right fist and just clocked him–and I never stopped. Windmill style. He opened his door to try and escape, and I held on to his jacket, took my foot and kicked him out of his car. (God I love remembering this) He went flying onto the filthy two lane street, tripping like a stone on a brook.
        I sat there alone. Then it hit me.. I couldn’t drive yet. No drivers license!
        He never wanted me to drive. I took this as ‘cute’, when we first discussed it. He was jealous! How cute!
        Well, it wasn’t at that moment.

        I sat there looking for change to hail a cab, and he sheepishly reappeared, head lowered and took his seat. Few words were spoken, as we headed home. I recall telling him “wait till I tell your mom.”
        Now mind you, I’m as insane as the best of them.
        But killing him could mean a life sentence -or close to it. No one is worth that. .In a situation like that, I could and did hold my own. As time went on, I had to prove it a few more times, until we finally divorced.
        The guns I own, are for intruders. Uninvited guests. Protection. I have no qualms about shooting one of them.

        A while back, I’ve spent many hours, thinking of how I’d end my own life, while I sank lower and lower into depressions cellar. I’m still not thrilled with any of my ideas. None of us are getting out of here alive anyway.
        I got a repreive from death this year re: a health problem. I’m not completely out of the woods yet..
        but I can see the highway…
        and I know that in this one moment of clarity here- I want to live. Sick or depressed- I love life.
        xoxoxoxooxos

        • You sure we weren’t married to the same fell? i was beaten to a pulp in the car too cause i didn’t hear what he said. All i felt was shame and wished i’d been paying closer attention. I know it is wrong, but it’s how i felt at the time, as though i could somehow control the situation.
          You have a Great attitude StevieNicks! Unfortunately i am much more like your sister. You are a feisty gal! Bravoe! Thanks for the story, and i am glad you are not in prison as so many women are for defending themselves. it amazes me how so many men get away with murder, but women are almost burned at the stake still.

    • i know a lot of people with guns, even concealed weapons permits that are the MOST paranoid people i know, but because they have not gone to get help with their brain problems, they have never been diagnosed with a MI. but because I willingly went to get help for depression and suicidal desires i was hospitalizes, therefor in societies mind, i am a danger to myself and others. i can tell you, i am not a risk with a gun, i am the one it would be turned on and i’d say, “you better not miss”. i am not afraid to die, i would welcome it.

    • Yes, Every human being has thought of killing themselves or another. INCLUDING Psychiatrist who asked you the question and took your rights away. He will even tell you that if he is honest and then proceed to still take your rights away. This is when you are expected to lie to keep your rights. It’s quite sad. If anyone disagrees with this please tell me. I would think maybe a person who has never had those thought’s was HIGHLY abnormal or maybe in a coma or the like. WN

  26. Many people will not listen to rational reasons why people shouldn’t lose gun rights . There is the problematic vague term “mental illness” and the fact that most people have had 4 or 5 diagnoses thru their life because of checklist diagnosing from the DSM. It is better as Natasha Tracy said – base these decisions on violent behaviors. A judge should decide, just as a judge decides when someone had dementia so bad that a relative will have to take over their affairs, with consultation with psychiatrists and legal representation a right,

    ***The STRONGEST argument with the general public that we have as people with bipolar disorder, major depression, etc, imo, is that who the heck is going to go in for treatment if it means they are going to be put in an FBI database as if they are a felon?! A person would have to be a martyr, or too young to understand how dangerous it is to be on a list like that. This argument is rather effective even with people who hate and fear us due to media and politician fear-mongering. People are so afraid, they cannot think rationally about civil rights, which are supposed to be for every American.

    Seriously, if the witch hunt continues to escalate, we will be wearing black triangles soon enough. It will be only figuratively, since the government can keep track of us with computers. Google black triangles. It will be like we are level 3 sexual predators, on a list people can google, because somebody’s gonna get that list and put it on the Internet, just like some group did for registered firearms owners in New York a year ago (assuming I remember that right)..

    • great statements Cats!
      Yesterday i was talking about firearms with someone and i had similar (but not as good) response as yours and she poo pooed me as if i were “crazy” (well i know i am but that’s not the point). she seems to think i am blowing it all out of proportion. maybe i am, i am mentally ill you know! therefore all my “extreme” views are do to my MI. yes, sarcasm. We have to be protected from ourselves and they have to be safe from us. then i told her two people we both know who have not been diagnosed with MI and own guns. then she looked like a deer in headlights. i asked, who would you feel safe in a room with me or them. she said, “you have a good point”. yes, i agree, i am more of a danger to myself, but dang, i am an adult.
      i hear some people say they want protection. a gun really is not necessary unless you want to kill someone. not my personal desire so I walk with a large (not the wimpy little can) can of mace, it is not just regular mace, it has three different things in it. like bear spray in a smaller can. i sprayed it yesterday to see how it worked and was i pleasantly surprised! it sprayed about 10-15 feet in a nice solid thick stream.

  27. Pingback: And I’m Still a Bit Peeved | Timiarah.com

  28. The Fort Hood shooting is another example of a cultural blind spot around guns, mental health, suicide potential, and escalating risk. The shooter was connected with a care system, but there was no social system or care system or command system to confront or support him as he became more distressed and as he became more lethal.

    I have taken, and have advocated for taking, lethal means from people in emotional distress, and am convinced this has prevented deaths. True, this is a hard topic because it involves denial of a right connected with a medical condition, and bad outcomes that are pretty rare but tragic when they happen. Yet the connection of guns to suicide and homicide can’t be ignored. 38,000 suicides per year, and about two percent of these also involve a homicide.

    How can people be safe if we insist that everyone ignore risk?

    Natasha, thanks again for having the courage to even raise this topic (even though we disagree on this one).

    • Shall we make you chairman of the board to decide who is worthy and who is unworthy of carry a firearm. I have decided by your post you are now unworthy. Please turn in your firearms. You scare me. Depending on who does the interview and what there motives are and how the symptoms and severity if such are organized. I think maybe 80 percent plus of all humans under DSM would be considered MI. WN

    • Hi Paul, your point,” he became more distressed and as he became more lethal”. Why was he not hospitalised when he was so distressed? In a hospital not a jail. If the answer to that question is because there are insufficient facilities then surely that’s the big problem. Taking away a weapon ensures that the mentally ill person is the only one to suffer. For the time being.

      • Paul reads minds. He assumes as a person becomes more distressed (for what ever reason) they become more violent, and more violent towards others (this is his disguised point parading as concern, or his greed in relationship to his “foundation(s)”. He assumes people live in a vacuum and that his use of force or the use of force he advocates used by others (it appears Paul may be too much of a coward to effect this violence, or threat of such on his own). He thinks his actions have no effect on the behavior of others and when they do have an effect and create violence, or the threat of it it is 100% the responsibility of those it is perpetrated against. Paul thinks he has the right by himself or through others to be the judge, jury and executioner. Not to mention the law giver. He has already proven that he can’t admit his mistakes (if that is really what they were) nor his associations with “foundations” admitting they are soliciting as tax shelters. WN

  29. I came across your article after I was denied firearms. Great piece. I think it is unfair to assume that every person with a mental illness will shoot and kill someone. I wanted my gun for home defense.

    I agree that they should maybe “pay close attention” to those with mental illness, but I don’t like the fact that they automatically remove our rights based on a condition.

  30. Pingback: Gun Laws: My 72-Hour Wait | Timiarah.com

  31. Sorry but having spent 20 years working with people who have a severe mental illness I am all for denying them the right to have guns. I have seen rational reasonable people become psychotic in a matter of days and if somebody is holed up in their house or apartment with their guns, nothing good is going to come of it.

    • Sorry Carol, I have spend over twenty years with a severe mental illness and have never been violent to another. I have therefore decided based upon a majority of those of us who have this illness and these traits decided. You and your peers are hereby denied access to firearms. Although I can buy, put together from parts, manufacture through traditional machinery methods or partial or three-D methods either rifles, shotguns, semi-auto handguns, machine pistols and full auto full bore heavy machine guns. I am obviously to ignorant to hold up to your standards. So please feel free to give one of these guns to a local jr. college educated police officer so he/she can safely enforce these proactive laws against me and the other devils. Most who don’t even know how to clean and safely use such firearms. I’m guessing of course to get these guns you must arm other proactively to seize those of others. Your fear of the future will make my pain in the present a reality.

    • Yes, so this is how it goes. You calculate the odds of what someone MAY do to you (your subjective level of fear). In response you pay money by taxes to someone with a gun (police) or yourself personally with same to take by force (threat of violence or violence itself) if needed from them their gun/guns. If that person responds as they should by these acts against them by you and/or your proxy you label them as the guilty party. Sorry, again as I’ve said YOUR fear of what MAY happen doesn’t give you the proactive right to take MY gun/guns/rights away. I have a right to defend myself against you and/or the proxy you employ through taxes or otherwise in these circumstances. Your fear doesn’t allow you under ANY circumstances to take my guns or any other property, personally or through a proxy at any time and for any reason from me or anyone else with or without MI or any other pretext.
      Please test your commitment to you stance by acting like a man and PERSONALLY taking away guns and property from those whom you fear. I now fear you. Shall I now take what I please from you and /or hire someone else to do so.
      Please, feel free to try. I stick to my word and follow my code. I do not hide behind the internet or proxy’s as you seem to think is OK. My e-mail is listed on this blog. If you contact me I will give you my address to come and get my firearms. Since I now have a fear of you, will you please do the same for me and give me your personal e-mail and address.
      I am severely mentally ill with an emotional disorder. My reason and morality are not impaired although it appears that yours is. Seems your life and family’s are worth defending with a firearm or otherwise but all the MI people who follow this blog, well their lives and family’s aren’t important. I disagree and if you come after me I will defend myself, same as I would expect from you if a thug were to come after you.
      The difference between me and you is you appear to be a coward who would support the gov. (armed police) and you personally taking my life, my family’s lives and property from me and them. I don’t see you or your family’s lives, property, freedom and so on more important them mine and my family’s.
      You have spent 20 years working with people. I’ve spent 48 year’s living and dealing with people as well. Thirty-three of them with BP and I still don’t give YOU or anyone the right to take from me what isn’t yours to take. If you are afraid of people with MI then get some help for you irrational fears. Maybe your are one of us. Maybe you are just SPECIAL.
      By the way don’t think anyone of us here would like to be on the end of your “work”. I can only imagine what that work entails. You look at the chart, made by say a 2 min. evaluation and judgement and the “treatment” begins. Paternalism and control are great against those YOU fear. What other in your care fear I suppose is irrelevant.
      WN

      • Watch the movie Minority Report – it’s really the same thing as what’s done against mental patients.

        Actually, I do read a lot of science fiction, so I knew who wrote the story, and it turns out that Philip K. Dick had mental health problems. I guess I would have to read the short story that spawned the movie to see if it was meant to address civil commitment. If you google, you will see that a lot of people besides me saw the similarity.

        • I’ve seen the movie and agree. Only thing is I think Tom Cruise maybe shouldn’t have a firearm due to his believing in Scientology. Just joking about the last part. WN

    • You spent 20 years working with people “who have a severe mental illness”, yet apparently you didn’t learn enough to know that not everyone with a “severe mental illness” has psychotic symptoms. You are nothing more than an [moderated].

  32. Why is it always assumed that it is men who beat their wives and not the reverse. Recent studies have shown women more likely to use weapons against their husband then the reverse. I am a man 6’4″ 275 lbs. and have experienced just as much abuse from cowardly police due to being a big man as I ever have being mentally ill. Two women in my life have put their hands on me, I have never done it even to defend myself in return. Put the two together and they shoot you with the taser summarily when a vindictive and greedy family member makes a phone call quicker than you can say your name. As well don’t trust “records” of violence. Abusive police create the records. I think we know how so called constitutional rights in reality apply to the commitment process. The very act of sticking up for your rights labels you non-compliant and combative. As I’ve said before to many people you will never be given rights you must take them. If others consider that violent then so be it. I’ve played by the systems rules my whole life. Now I play by mine. Finally moderation is censorship and that is how ALL prejudice is perpetuated and condoned.

  33. I am more concerned with people that have cluster B personality disorders. I have a “history of violence” but I was 17, manic and on high amounts of hallucinogens and it was actually self defense. In my state, pepper spraying a female after she kicked my door in and started assaulting me because I was screaming non stop but laws have changed and more women are being arrested for their violence issues as well so it is good to see times changing.

    Domestic violence knows no gender or age. I know kids that are the violent ones to their parents even

    I am also the confrontational type of manic so I think in my instance. I choose to be responsible and opt out. My grandfather was a navy seal so I could protect myself just fine without a gun.

  34. I will say up front, I am mentally ill and love this article that you’ve written. Your ability to articulate is incredible. I wish I had that gift. Though my comments are not about the article, rather some of the comments.
    I am having a hard time with the people who say that people with depressive disorders should not have a gun. You try living in this world as a depressed person and multiple other MI’s! It is very painful. I wish for you 1 hour in my head. You’d go insane and want a gun too!

    What I also hear some of you say is that our children, our loved ones, etc are more important then we are, that our suffering is alright to go through so we don’t hurt anyone from our deaths. You want us to stay here and live in pain; our suffering is OK, we don’t deserve peace? Gee thanks. Compassion at it’s greatest.

    Although not read here, there is a cliche’ I am sick of is, “It is a permanent solution to a temporary problem”. Sorry folks, I am in my 50’s and this is not a temporary problem, it has been a life time of HELL that only gets worse with time.

    If I want a gun and I want to kill myself, I believe I should have that right. If I want to kill myself, I WILL do it (with or without a gun) and if that means borrowing someones gun, I will. At least if I have my own gun, the person I borrowed it from won’t feel guilty that I used theirs. Besides, there are so many ways in which to kill yourself besides a gun.

    Guns are not the issue, mental illness is not the issue, and suicide is not the issue. Violence in people IS the issue. If violence had not been an issue in my life, I think my problems would not have escalated to the point in which they have.
    I know I’d never hurt anyone with a gun unless they were coming after me, but I know plenty of legal gun owners who should be in prison for past violent crimes.

    I am a waste of resources for people who like it here. I have no medical insurance, can’t afford the pills they want me to take, and in 2012 alone, I have wasted over $100.000.00 (charity care) because I have been tucked neatly away into the mental wards (because therapist didn’t want me to die) a few times as well as in ICU from an OD. I was sooo close! Is that how you want your tax dollars spent? Personally, I’d rather see that money go to homes to help the poor and starving families! Just think of the money that could be saved if I had a gun!

  35. First of all, a “mental illness” is not – I repeat is not – a medical illness. Those diagnoses were not based on pathological or biological data, but created for billing purposes.
    Second of all, a case could be made for everyone having a “mental illness” since we are all scared in some way and we all have “flashpoints” – but that does not mean we are about to pick up a gun and use it. Your next door neighbor, co-worker, or sales clerk is more likely to go off half-cocked than someone who has been diagnosed with a “mental illness”. That diagnosis means absolutely nothing. Having been committed at some point in the distant past means nothing – people have been wrongfully committed before. The people with diagnoses are those who’ve recognized they have problems – seems to me we should be more concerned about the rest of society since they are the ones that commit 95% of the violent crimes. The “mentally ill” are the last ones they should be looking at. BTW, can anyone tell me what “normal” is?

    • Yes, mental illness is a medical illness. The body is one. Just because it cannot be measured like diabetes or blood pressure, does not mean it is not a medical illness. Check out a NAMI meeting in your neighborhood and learn.

      • First off moderating a website means censorship. Anyone in a minority especially someone with “mental illness” should understand the evils of this and cease doing it. Or explain the political or forced constraints as why they are inhibited in doing so. As to my reply to the reply. Do not borrow the firearm to commit suicide as you are under increased scrutiny to follow the rules than others are, not to mention the enlightened or unaware individual who loaned you the firearm now faces almost certain abuse from the do gooder hand holding friends of the “mentally ill”. Mainly naive police and others who are members of NAMI and other politically correct, gov’t and other sponsored organization who tow the dehumanization line. NAMI is as useful as the the US dept. of health in protecting the rights of the “mentally ill”. I know a clip from a mag, a synapse from a neuron and someone who would hire a police office using a gun to take anothers gun. Like the US bombing Iran with nukes to prevent them from getting nukes. Who’s the aggressor here. Hypocrisy is a wonderful thing isn’t it. I’ll kill you with a gun, or hire someone else to because I’m afraid you may get one. Then I’ll justify this all in a slew of B.S. Grow up and learn to thing logically and with consistency.

  36. I wish people would understand treating a man like a child contributes to depression. Not respecting people and expecting them to respect you is irrational. I’m so tired of not just my depression but the paternalism and discrimination. I don’t know whats worse anymore.

  37. I, after the Newtown shooting response have decided to go into the closet about my depression. I will henceforth obtain my medications on the sly. Being open for 32 years with my depression and promised confidentiality I have come to the conclusion this always was and always will be impossible. I will begin to keep my illness as much a secret as if I were Jewish in Germany in the 30″s. The witch hunt is on people. Time to go underground.

  38. Yes. We will drive those who are mentally ill into the closet who enjoy shooting guns. Good move. The paranoia of those who aren’t mentally ill will win another battle. Like denying condoms to sexually active teenagers. The fools will always reign supreme.

  39. Good article. Largely agree with your perspective and with denying weapons to those that have history of violence. Unfortunately that still leaves a large contingent that may be in the future (and history shows us this happens), but I don’t see an easy answer for that one.

  40. Thank you for this post. I am really concerned that linking the need for better mental health care with violence is very much increasing the stigma against mental illness. I know large advocate groups like NAMI can’t really bring this up because it is best to take the health care changes but I do think some of us need to do something. Any suggestions on how we as a community can help not let this stigma of mental illness being linked to violence get out of hand while at the same time not implying that we don’t want mental health care?

    http://www.bipolarspirit.com/2013/01/dont-let-new-gun-control-regulations.html?m=1

  41. I see a number of assumptions that suicide by gun is the default method for suicidal mentally ill gun owners. Even if I wanted to die and had a gun, I’d never shoot myself. It’s messy, loud, and would leave a horror show behind for others to discover. Anyone have actual stats on this?

  42. Aside from gun control, if this whole mess leads to improved mental health services, that would be great! Especially after years of cutting services. THAT would be a very good thing.

  43. I’m concerned about how the gun debate in America has spilled over to Australian gun debate, in which a trend seems to be forming that the blame for gun deaths are attributed to people who are mentally ill, I have seen little counter argument, the news on TV especially are contributing and every segment I have seen across the spectrum, sums it up as gun deaths=mentally Ill person.

      • Yes this concerns me too. After awful mass-murder tragedies people are looking for some kind of reason, or answer, or some kind of response. I’ve had facebook friends post that there should be more services for the mentally ill to prevent future gun deaths. It’s simply a lack of understanding reinforced by the media.

        People explain these shootings by “He must have just gone crazy” or “he wasn’t in his right mind”. They don’t like to think that a ‘normal’ person could have done something like that.

        More and more I realise that the media has nothing to do with the facts of the situation. The media plays on the fears and other emotions of the viewers and doesn’t let the facts get in the way of a good story.

        The implications of all of this are that people with real mental illnesses who are not dangerous at all, but need understanding and support, are instead feared by the community and even made a convenient scapegoat. People with bipolar, or schizophrenia, particularly in the early stages, are among the most vulnerable members of the community. We need the support and protection of the others – and in return we have many gifts to contribute.

  44. I have been institutionalized because of severe mental illness four times. But the last time was more than tewenty-five years ago. I am probably bioploar 1 although in 1964 I was diagnosed paranoid schizophrenic and no one has rediagnosed me since-simply sent for previous records. I clearly exhibited psychotic features, but have not been seriously psychotic in more than twenty-five years now.

    I grew up around guns. There is a lot of hunting going on stil today in my home country. I was extremely well trained in the safe use of guns. I have never behaved violently toward anyone other than in football games. Truely no living human being alive today is more trustworthy with a firearm than myself.

    Federal law, however, prohibits me from purchasing or owning a gun. This is because I have been found mentally unstable previously. There is no statute of limitations. If I live psychosis free for 1000 years, unless the laws change I will be prohibited from gun ownership.

    Interpretation of the statute varies a little from place to place, but the above is basic fact.

    Is this just? I think not.

    Thank you for yet another well written collumn, Natasha

  45. I completely and wholeheartedly disagree with this article on so many levels. People with mental illness are not more likely to be violent, except to themselves. Letting someone own a gun who has a high chance of becoming suicidal is tantamount to saying ‘Hope you succeed next time’.

    In my opinion there is no reason for most people to own guns. Coming from a country that enacted fairly strict gun laws in 1996 the statistics are compelling. In the decade prior to the gun laws there had been 11 mass shootings, since then there have been none. Suicides by gun dropped by 65% and homicides by 59% with no increase in non-firearm-related homicides.

    As you can tell I’m a strong advocate for gun laws to limit what type of guns are allowed, and who can own one. But in the meantime I don’t think anyone who is likely to become suicidal should own one. They may be quite stable at the time of buying a gun, but we know that a lot of suicide attempts are impulsive and having a highly lethal method of death in the house is irresponsible. I don’t even own any ropes for that same reason.

  46. My brother gave me a .38 several years ago. Later, when I was diagnosed with bipolar disorder I gave it to a friend to keep in his gun safe.

    Guns are the most efficient killing machines and I really don’t think it’s a good idea for anyone with a depressive illness to have a gun in the house. It’s way too easy to kill yourself. Your chances of using it on yourself verses on an intruder are not stacked in your favor.

    I’m in no way against guns if people know how to use them and know how to store them. Bad guys can always find a gun. To make it nearly impossible for a good guy to buy a gun…well, you figure it out..

  47. Very good article Natasha. However, I think guns shouldn’t be allowed to be kept by someone with a mental illness. Only for the fact that suicide is an increasing risk among the mentally ill. While some argue when a person is suicidal they will find a way, I think a gun is a too quick solution and leaves little room for the few who were rescued when trying to commit suicide, unsuccessfully. Guns produce finality 99% of the time.

  48. Gun activists want a scapegoat…..it were blacks they didnt want to own guns before….I do not like guns — they have the power to kill a person as do tons of other things (ex. An autimobile). Your presentation of your point was excellent…..I am a victim of rape and it seems people would rather talk about guns than rapists in the news…guns instead of human trafficking…. for me being dead sounds much easier than being a slave in the sex trade…gor me being dead seems easier than being completely psychotic with an inability to help one’s self and with no one
    intervening… a gun can quickly kill someone.. a person with a mental illness without access to mental health care can easily be killed just much slower

    • My post below was written on my phone and I wanted to edit it – couldn’t, so adding more: What I meant to say was I’d rather be well than ill, I’d rather not be involved (in) the sex trade as a sex slave, and I’d rather people who are psychotic to get treatment. Using the “death would be easier for me” was a bit much, over-the-top. I apologize for shocking comments.

  49. Very well written and stated. May I share the link with two private Facebook groups (Everyday Aspergers and Bipolar Disorder / Manic Depression United!)? Thank you for writing this!

      • SCAM WARNING

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      • Didn’t really bother reading this time, but last time was solicited for money and they represented themselves as a part of your business, activities or the like. They most definitely misrepresented themselves. As I think I said I just received this today. In fact just now as checking my email. Hope this heads up helps you.

        • Hi Will,

          Thanks for taking the time to copy and paste this for me. The last time you mentioned this I sent out a warning over Facebook and it’s probably time to do it again.

          I really appreciate you letting me know.

          – Natasha Tracy

  50. I completely agree with you, and it is nice to read that someone else agrees with me. Sometimes I think everyone thinks people with a mental illness shouldn’t be allowed guns. Of course they should, it’s protected by law.

    • Sadly is doesn’t. It should but it doesn’t. These guilty before being proven laws shouldn’t override the constitution but it appears they do. You see Raine your beautiful child’s life there if you are MI isn’t as important for you to protect as say the child or a normal parent. You see you may shoot and murder your child. These are the real things we face when dealing with the paranoid “normal” people and the Dudly Dorights who would as well have us suffer for ever and ever and be raped and have same done to our children and they will come to our rescue. Problem is if these people cant even see to it we all get good medical care then how are they to give us all this extra help when say and abusive spouse is stalking us. Not going to happen.

    • Hi VenusH,

      I was never on any “bandwagon.” I happen to have some of the same opinions as DJ Jaffe but my writings reflect my opinions, which are mine and not his.

      Like me or hate me, you can’t blame him.

      – Natasha Tracy

  51. If there were no guns, then nobody would get shot. Violence would still happen though, as it has throughout the history of time. Human beings are dangerous creatures, and in order to be safe, we all should splice our genes with the Cavalier King Charles Spaniel, then the only way people would get hurt is by choking on a hairball.

    Seriously though. What really upsets me is portrayal of mental illness in the media. I never noticed it before, but it seems that mentally ill people are lower in regard than criminals, because at least criminals can be rehabilitated. If your brain is not fully functional then your status as a human is in question. The references to mentally ill in the media are sometimes direct, sometimes indirect, and sometimes made without even realising it. It’s very very hurtful.

    I was once a professional who everybody looked up to. Now I’m the same person with the same values, the same capabilities and potential, but with an illness to recover from and manage. It seems I’m at the bottom of the heap now, whether I am dealing with the government welfare agency or my professional registration body I am scum and I am dangerous. I need to be monitored and I need to be pushed around, according to the powers that be, even though I’m probably more careful and conscientious than any of them.

    Yes fight for equal rights of the mentally ill.

    Perhaps not for guns.

  52. Im very sorry, but i couldnt disagree with you more. Ask any staff member who works in a locked psychiatric facility, ask the family of an unstablelized loved one, ask law enforcement- who says a psychiatric emergency is one of their most dangerous and unpredicatable calls they go on. If the mental health community stated the truth, they would say, those with unstabelized mental illness are more apt to be violent towards self, in the form of suicide, self harm and mutilation than towards others. How can we ignore suicide rates where 65% of males use a hand gun? Unless you dont think any of these things are violent? How can we be so far apart on this issue? I understand not wanting to perpetrate an awful sterotype, but not acknowledging this ugly truth discrminates against those who suffer a psychotic disorder, harms those in a state of psychosis and prevents these vulnerable patients from the right to treatment they deserve.

  53. Sorry, I completely disagree. I wish i didnt. I dont like the truth, but those in a state of psychosis are highly unpredictable, often agitated and combative. Ask any staff member who works in a locked psychiatric facility, ask any parent of an unstabelized family member, ask law enforcement- who will tell you their most dangerous and unpredictable call is a psychiatric emergency. They arrest the MI for assault and battery everyday-in every city. Are are all these groups magnifying the truth and lying?? If the mental health community was going to be truthful, they would say…those with untreated mental illness are more apt to be violent towards self in the form of suicide, self harm and mutilation> than towards others. Unless you dont think suicide is a form of violence. 65% of males use a hand gun to commit suicide. Why are you completely ignoring violence towards self?

    • Thank you, you said this better than I could have. People in a state of psychosis are so unpredictable, you do not know exactly what they are thinking and what they wholly believe to be true.

      Natasha, I agree that mentally ill people are depicted in a disgusting way in the media but for the most part if someone is not in the right state of mind then they don’t completely comprehend the impact shooting a gun will have in that moment. Especially with thoughts of suicide, it becomes scarily easy to cause harm with a gun around.

      With that being said, I think that everyone does deserve the right to own a gun, and everyone DOES have that right, but if a doctor/therapist/psychiatrist etc should see a trend forming that could result in the harm of that person (or others) then I feel it should be the doctor’s duty to file some sort of document with the courts so that person is not granted easy access to guns.

    • In the wake of the horrendous 18 to 21 stabbings in Pennsylvania yesterday, I believe this incident makes the perfect point.
      If you want to kill yoursellf, why with hold a gun from anyone, when a simple knife will do? But wait!
      Ask any police officer and they would say that they’d rather get shot than stabbed with a knife.
      Knife wounds tear open organs and most bleed out. A terrible way to go.
      So now, no more knives. There goes my Ginsue.
      Why not out law more lethal items we crazies own? Along with our gas ovens, most bipolar drugs, an open window on a high floor, driving our cars off cliffs, hanging, drinking draino, a hammer, carbon monixide poisoning, jumping in front of a fast truck–most of which a MI person hasn’t once considered at one time or another!
      Why not take them all away? Because you can’t!
      They all have the potential to kill us, or to kill someone else. You just have to want to, b/c of the sickness or have the reason, like self preservation.

      These items or random acts aren’t considered as dangerous as a gun. Why zero in on the lowly gun?
      I don’t think this conversation of applies to the MI locked up in a psychiatric facility one bit! . Of course we wouldn’t give them a fire arm-b/c we’re, for the most part, not in that catagory.
      Most of us can reason beyond those poor souls.
      If taken a poll, how many of us have witnessed ‘normies’ come to the anger level of psuedo insanity, in where
      they were temporarily suicidal… homicidal? I know I have. I believe that anyone is capable of killing themselves, or others, w/o the title of bipolar, schizophrenia, pyschotic or the like. People get angry, and they murder.
      Take away my gas oven, my windows, and my car. Maybe I’ll just die of starvation.

      • WOW! Very well said SN! omg will they take my collection of machetes now? I think cars are the most dangerous weapons, look how many are killed in cars by angry, drunk, high on other drugs, distracted i.e. cell phone, screaming at children, putting on makeup, jackin off, drivers etc. take all the cars away now! As i said before, i may be a danger to myself, i have always been the victim of violence from the ones who are “healthy”. with this stabbing situation, i wonder how many of the people stabbed we being bullies to this kid? i know i was bullied a lot and if i had had thought of it, i would have stabbed a few of them when younger. or maybe not, i do have a great deal of self control. unlike the “well” people who attacked me.

        • You are so right ‘Denise’ ! I’ve forgotten the level and measure of danger, our cars and the drivers are capable of! This is just ignored by our legislators and the insane-people-checkers! If they were going to take a Really deadly item away from us insanies, take the damn cars.
          And for many of the (Lmao) reasons you’ve stated -and more.
          I just professed in one of my posts here, that I punched my ex at a stop light in our car, albeit in self defense. (or revenge- tomato tomahto)
          I’d bet if they took the cars away from anyone who has ever shown any signs of mental illness or violence, there’d be no cars on the roads –except for cops, fire engines, ambulances and the occassional Good Humor truck.

          Guns, huh? -that ‘s the least of their worries re: the insanes.
          xoxoxoxxoxoxxos

          • I betcha that 90%, likely more, of the cops would be off the roads too! Oh but they have the right to go crazy, it’s a part of their job, right? Don’t get me started! Thanks for your comments, i love the sarcastic humor. This gun rights thing, or lack thereof, is almost laughable. If it weren’t so deadly serious, i’d be laughing

          • Plenty of people would just as soon lock all of us up rather than worry about the cars, pipe bombs, knives etc. I wouldn’t be surprised if outpatient commitments are greatly expanded, because nobody will pay to lock all of us up. It’s so much cheaper to have the van come by once a week to give the depot injection and keep us shuffling and drooling. will this happen? Probably not, but maybe.

            I’m spooked. I’m making long term plants to transition out of treatment and off disability, even though there is no way I can consistently earn a living with depression as severe and chronic as I get it. I’m hoping the bipolar diagnosis will fall off my medical records after 7-10 years. I am very sorry I ever went for “help” for bipolar disorder. I’m in the midwest, and my therapist does not think politicians will target gun rights here like has been done on the coasts, being gun rights are strongly supported here. I’m not so sure. We’ve had a couple shootings in my state, too. I don’t care about the guns all that much – I do deer hunt, it’s true it would take the sheriff a half hour to get to my house if there were an intruder, but mostly, being treated as a felon is deeply offensive to me. I am extremely responsible and don’t deserve that. I do take disability income from society, but I give back as much as I can and always did, even when I was able to work. I hunt with a bunch of veterans, they know I have bipolar, and they are happy to have me in the group. A couple of them have had their own issues, albeit not as severe or chronic as mine.

            • I think you are so right Cats. Outpatient commitments can expand the discrimination, save much money and continue to make the do- gooders, paranoid, police and all those who claim to want to help the MI as well as those who wish to continue abuse to get their way. Personally I would never submit to anything like it. I would do just what many of them would want me to do but too cowardly to do it themselves. So easy to pick on the sick. It will never cease to amaze me how cowards can feel even more powerful by abusing the ill. With these outpatient commitments everybody benefits except guess who. WN.

      • I think the main pt. is that one has the right to kill oneself. Especially if society’s solution to “help” people who are suicidal is to lock them up and feed them drugs against their will. I can’t think of a worse torture then to induce akathesia. Or say solitary confinement in a jail or a psychiatric hospital.
        Remember to frame the argument is to win the argument. The pt. of these laws isn’t to protect people from themselves or society from them. It is fear. I am suicidal, not homicidal. But every action has an equal and opposite reaction and things don’t happen in a vacuum as they say. When you punish people for things they didn’t do, then you must face the consequences. WN

        • I could not agree w/ you more- WN
          Paraphrasing- “I can’t think of a worse torture then to confine a mental patient to solitary confinement or a psyche hospital.” “or to lock them up and feed them drugs agaist their will.”.
          I can’t either.
          (Especially with the state being your only advocate). even worse..
          Moreover if any person decides to end their life-
          I believe it’s their Right also.
          Not that I’m endorsing it– I’m certainly not.
          It’s just that I u.n.d.e.r.s.t.a.n.d. it.

      • A window’s purpose isn’t to kill, neither is an oven’s (I could go on forever). Guns are solely made to kill, so it’s not the same thing.

  54. Hello Natasha

    You’re right, if the only thing you focus on is risk of violence against others. But risk of suicide is a different and much bigger risk for people with mental illness. People who are at risk of suicide should have zero access to guns. There are 30,000 gun deaths in the US annually, and 19,000 are suicides.

    –pk—

    • Many suicides happen by OD-ing on prescribed drugs. Does this mean that crazies shouldn’t have access to prescribtion medicines? If they live in cities with tall buildings or cliffy areas… should they be relocated somewhere safer?

      it’s individual decision about own safety. if somebody wants to die, they will find a way.

      • We just need to recognize what promotes safety, what increases risk of harm. And when things get really tough, we must do whatever we must to keep each other safe.

        The bottom line is that when a person is suicidal, they should not have access to lethal means. No guns, no meds, no kitchen knives. Friends and family should make sure the person is never left alone. Everyone should stay in touch with medical providers, the local crisis line, or the national suicide hotline 1-800-273-8255.

        If people cycle into suicidality, it’s trickier, but that’s what communication and planning are for. We need to talk with each other about what we are going through in order to adapt to changing levels of risk.

        Yes, it’s hard to face up to the loss of autonomy or loss of rights or privileges. No one wants to have to deal with tough emotions either. But if we’re prudent we are much more likely to survive all that, and have a chance to focus on getting better over the long haul.

        –pk—

        • I called that number and specifically told them not to call police under any circumstances as the police had abused me physically numerous times in the past for my political activity ( once for organizing a protest againsts four police officers for murdered a woman in her own house who had nothing but a butter knife and committed no other crime than being nude and arguing with her neighbor, she was not even determined to be the instigator of the argument ) What happened. Eight of them knocked down my door with a large iron bashing device went directly to my bed then all but one officer emptied there two taser hooked rounds then a couple of them on orders of a sergeant proceeded to use the tasers directly on my skin without the hooks ( didn’t know tasers could do that ). I’m convinced they were trying to induce a heart attack. Under NO circumstances call police for a mental health problem. You will be punished, NOT helped. If you must call a suicide hotline buy a cheap prepaid cell phone ( if using 911 ) it’s free, if not buy a few minutes and keep moving if on 911 as the gps will draw the abusive police. If not turn off the gps in the setting if your phone has it and move on occasionally as you can still be tracked by triangulation and some phones the gps is still active. DO NOT BELIEVE they will not call police. They will lie to you and further shake your trust in humanity, ignoring the fact that the next time you will not call and go directly to committing suicide. Especially in the U.S. police are mostly thugs and care little if at all about human suffering. Remember many of them just came back from killing civilians in Iraq or Afghanistan and if they did at one time care they no longer do.

        • Which fantasy planet did you beam in from where people get this support and medical care. Wake up and smell the reality. You live a dream world more deluded then those who you say you care about. For most of us there is not any of those supports and unless you can provide them don’t stop us from the only relief we may have available. If you get a severe cancer you will most likely get large doses of morphine or the like. Not so for most in the world. You I suppose will force them through he pain while you get your relief. I’m guessing your from a very worthy back round. Am I wrong? Please respond. I’m quite curious. WN

        • I repeat, if people really cared about mental patients committing suicide, there would be nice places for people to go recover, with help offered besides drugs drugs drugs. It’s a false argument! Most people are only using the suicide argument because they can say they justify curtailing civil rights for our own good. Yeah, right. If it’s for our own good, why is there no help besides the abusive police, abusive hospital and drugs. Besides, google suicide rates by country. It doesn’t seem to correlate with gun availability at all.

          Will, your story was scary. I’ve not had that bad of experiences, but bad enough I’ll never talk to the suicide hotline folks anymore. More fake help for people in emotional distress.

          I don’t get psychosis, but I think that issue or other issues where someone is completely mentally unorganized, out of touch etc. should be dealt with in a competency hearing, like is done with people who get dementia. Folks who improve a lot should have the chance to have legal rights restored.

          • Those laws in practice have no real meaning or protection for accused (ill) in Pennsylvania. I also have never been psychotic, but that was irrelevant to how I was treated. You have far less right’s them someone accused of a crime. No real due process. No bail. No real or private access to an attorney. No trial. You are determined incompetant by an administrative judge. Not a divested dr. or panel of them. No jury. No access to law books, computer. Not even pen and paper. Also no right to appeal as you have already done your time. WN

            • This is why “you’re insane” is the perfect way to shut someone up. No one listens to you, and even if it’s not true, you are deemed insane so no one believes what you say, or wants to, and so any time you say something inconvenient to the elite (even if you don’t know what’s considered inconvenient or why it is so), they will call you insane to shut you up.

              there is no pattern to which statements and deeds they don’t want you to say or do, so you can’t police your own behaviour to try to avoid getting in trouble. It was like this for me in school. I was punished for not following rules I wasn’t told about, and for saying things I didn’t know were forbidden until after the fact.

              In the novel 1984 Orwell shows us a society in which the government gets angry with the main character for saying two plus two is four. It doesn’t tell him what the answer it wants is, and he tears himself apart saying “what do you want from me? Is it five? Ten? I’ll say anything you want! Just stop the torture!” In 1984’s society, there are no rules, no predictability, no ratoinality, and one behaviour can be right today and wrong tomorrow.

              Words mean different things at the same time (doublespeak), and people who are unlucky enough to randomly get caught in one of the irrational rules are deemed to be defective (as if it’s their NATURE which caused them to break the rules, not the nature of the arbitrary and changing rules and that they were just unlucky enough to be in the wrong place at the wrong time- no common nature or trait can be assumed to be present within the rulebreakers in actuality because ANYONE could have been in the wrong place wrong time).

              “insane” people in America today are people who are caught on the wrong side of the circumstances and may not even have any common trait or nature. The only thing specific to them is being at the wrong place at the wrong time. The elite and authorities try to convince you that YOU are the common denominators so you fell afoul of the rules because of YOU, and this is gaslighting because it is teling you something that is factually untrue (it is warping reality). It is telling you that your nature caused you to get caught in their web, not the randomness of where they spin their web.

              (gaslighting is where you cause someone to doubt their perceptions and the facts they are seeing with their own eyes, when you warp or mis-frame information/situations, and where you convince a person he is crazy so he doesn’t trust himself, by presenting false information, or by telling him he imagined things that were really true. It is not gaslighting because you are saying negative things about the person or because you are causing low self esteem. That is not Gaslighting. Gaslighting is when you cause a person confusion about facts and about their abiilty to perceive them. the damage done is NOT to self esteem but practical damage to the person’s fact-finding and perception skills).

              They convince you that there was some way for you to change your nature so as to avoid breaking the rules, and that if you couldn’t predict their (random, arbitrary, or perhaps nonexistent) pattern, that you are defective.

              Therefore, you forever try to scrutinize everything in order to find this supposedly existing logic or pattern or some predictability and then you are diagnosed by them with Aspergers (supposedly, not being able to tolerate contradictions and noticing illogicalness is a symptom of AS!) Basically, if you are unable to predict the unpredictable, you have Aspergers. Everyone else, supposedly, haven’t broken any rules because they has been able to see the pattern because they are not “socially inept” like you. (Really, it is just that they were lucky enough not to happen to fall into the trap yet- they are in reality no less susceptible- “socially inept”- than you, being no more able to read minds and predict the future than you are).

              If you think about it, victims of gaslighting (what the authorities are doing- warping your knnowledge of reality) and people with Aspergers have symptoms that are suspiciously similar…perhaps “Aspergers” is a diagnosis for anyone who is unlucky enough to randomly get caught in one of the arbitrary rules- rules that no one is immune to, them being random and changing and unpredictable and such. You have the syndrome because you cant predict OUR rules. YOU have the syndrome because you can’t figure US out!

              Aspergers people are considered to be people who were inborn with certain traits- not people who were (more likely so) caused to have certain traits and behaviours by the situations our soceity puts people in. It is a difference in situation, not a difference in nature, which causes “Aspergers” behaviour. A kid who learns the truth before a lie is put into his head will get diagnosed with Aspergers. Or even just a kid who gets caught by one of the unpredictable contradictory demands.

              This could happen to any kid so any kid can be diagnosed with AS, and an AS diagnosis does not prove that the child is psychologically distinguishable from any other child. It just proves his CIRCUMSTANCES were different. A difference in circumstances (being in a situation where he fell afoul of an arbitrary “rule”) caused him to act the way he did, circumstances incuding the resulting gaslighting from the teachers and the confusion that results from them saying it is him that has the problem, not the arbirary nature of their rules.

              The fly that gets caught in the invisible moving web gets caught because he has Aspergers, and the fly that didn’t was “socially inteligent” enough to avoid it, basically, is what they’re preaching.

              People who end up with the Aspergers diagnosis (meaning- people who get caught in a rule/web, which forces them to wake up and recognize the arbitrary nature of the rule) are “mentally ill” and cannot join the Army and probably will not be able to have a gun in teh future.

              So-called Aspergers people:

              *insist on non contradiction
              Probably because they have been gaslighted and confused by their abusers

              *avoid or are unaware of peer pressure
              Because they are doing their own thing and aren’t focused on it, or because they were raised in a house where they were not taught about which things were popular. Or simply because, like everyone else, the kid just got caught not predicting an arbitrary social norm.

              *hate inconsistency
              Who doesn’t? Maybe they hate it more becase they have suffered its effects more.

              *have strong morals
              People who care have a syndrome. Peachy.

              *question authority
              Are they really questioning authority? Or is this just someone who said Two plus two is four and got beaten down for not knowing it’s really Five? After an event like this, they probably DO start to question authority because the very act of being punished ironically CAUSES them to wake up.

              *have “strong” emotions
              Gettng angry and confused because they are being gaslighted causes this

              *are (supposedly) bad at reading facial expressions
              Because they cannot read “five” off the authority’s face when the authority asks “what’s two plus two?”

              As for people who don’t believe people deemed mentally insane:

              I think it is still the fault of people who won’t believe you, however. No one forced them to beleive you were insane, and no one forces them to not realise insane people can still be teling the truth, and furthermore, they are still able to hear your statements and evaluate them on their own. They seem to be able to judge statements in and of themselves at all other times- why do they suddenly have the inability to do so when they hear the words “insane” (or “woman”, or “protester”, or whatever person they have decided not to want to listen to today)?

              No one forced them to ignore the facts, or even to believe the diagnosis the person received.

            • Reply to Sandi from 3/24/15
              Almost all that you have stated, if not all I agree with. Know 1984, Gas-lighting etc. Never diagnosed as asp. (though may be a club member) but suspect it may just be an evolutionary adaptation, non-existent or the like. Been trying to find Oliver Sacks take on it or what I thought was his take on it from a book I read of his years ago and was unsuccessful. Your well thought out and reasoned comments are valuable and much appreciated by me. I am again in the grips of the depression and haven’t the energy to respond. Sorry, it’s the nature of the devil we all here deal with. Keep up the good fight as long as you can and I’ll do the same. Funny how reason has become unreasonable and visa-versa. Love your post more then you know. WN in PA

            • I can’t respond to your Aspergers post for some reason so I responded here instead.

              Yes, ever since I woke up to what Gaslighting was I suspected AS might have some piece in the puzzle. Telling someone they have AS- or any mental illness- is the ULTIMATE Gaslighting procedure, in my opinion. To label a person’s perceptions incorrect by default. Nothing could be more ingenious for those who want to make you blind via your own brain.

              You can see why governments use it. Even whole demographic groups are gaslighted by society as an entity (women, blacks, children, etc).
              http://ownshrink.com/psychiatry/psychiatry-is-political/

              Ayn Rand’s article The Comprachicos talks about the warping of schoolchildren’s reality and their mental faculties.

              http://www.slideshare.net/crdixon/aynrandthecomprachicos

        • “we just need to recognize what promotes safety, what increases risks of harm”

          You mean like taking a bath with a blow dryer near the tub?
          right.

          We’d have to have a video cam in every room.

          • “stevie nicks” – Suicide prevention does go beyond the gun issue. You have a good point about fans and bathtubs. . People who are actively suicidal should never be left alone. I know people who are alive today because of the commitment of family members to keep their children and their spouses alive, even to the point of 24/7 support and constant observation at home.

            I know that care and attitudes towards people in distress needs to be better., and more respectful, in every context. The whole experience needs fixing.

            • All it takes is one mistake. for everyone who is saved, one accidentally dies.
              Will/can a loved one really stand there while their painfully sick mi loved one moves their bowels–or to have extra company, while they move theirs? Keep the windows and doors secured?

              It can come to that–iIf a loved one is severely ill in your home.
              One must committ to giving their lives up to tend to this type of situation, and those who do, are angels. They attempt the impossible.

              It takes strength, determination, guts, will power and of course, love.

              -The Mother Theresa kind..

              xxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxs

            • How about a response to my question. Shall we all just wait and continue to be abused and suffer and be forced to stay alive and lied to about help we will never be given when we need it. If you can’t help then just let people do what they must. Contributing to the problem doesn’t help. WN

            • It is not acceptable to put mental patients/former patients on a prohibited purchaser list as if they are felons, when they have done nothing wrong. If society gave a crap about those poor mental patients suiciding, mental hospitals would be nice places where people would feel safe to go, instead of afraid of abuse.

              Putting people on lists is going to cause people to avoid treatment.

              I am tired of the constant posts about how the families of mental patients so lovingly watch over their wayward child or other family member. Of course that happens in some families. In fact, my husband takes care of me when i am very bad off, just as I care for him with his physical health problems. But often, the families are abusers and that’s part of the mental illness problems, or in other cases, maybe they weren’t an abuser, but they ditch their family member in a hurry.

              Finally, if you take only a few minutes to google it, you will find that many countries with very low gun ownership have as many or more suicides than the US. People use other means if firearms are not available.

              If people cared, there would be help available for suicidal people. the purpose of the firearms list is for politicians to scapegoat mental patients for all the violence in our society. By making the argument that prohibiting mental patients from purchasing firearms is for our own good, you are helping the people who want to blame the mental patients for everything. The NRA wants to blame us so guns aren’t restricted for the rest of people. The gun control people want to tar us so they can chip away at gun rights by gradually broadening the list of prohibited purchasers. All of this discussion of how violent and suicidal we are is going to make stigma worse and worse.

              Make no mistake, NONE of this is about the mentally ill or helping the mentally ill. It’s just not.

        • “If people cared, there would be help available for suicidal people.”

          Agreed. You can tell they don’t care. As the Bible says, “ye shall know them by their fruits”- meaning, a person’s behaviour and the things they cause tell you about what theri true motives adn nature is.

          “the purpose of the firearms list is for politicians to scapegoat mental patients for all the violence in our society.”

          Yes, so they can cover up the REAL cause of the violence, which is a lot of “normal” people, including the politicians themselves. Also, we need to analyze what exactly “normal” and “mentally Ill” means in this society, and who decided who fit what label, and why. “normal” could merely mean “anyone who goes with the flow” and “mentally insane” could mean “anyone disgruntled, oppressed, awake to the unfairness, or someone who complains”.

          Therefore, it would be no surpise they woudl not want MI people to have guns. They decide “mentally ill people should not have guns” and then decide “people who disagree with our evil policies shall be called mentally ill.” Happened in USSR.

          “By making the argument that prohibiting mental patients from purchasing firearms is for our own good, you are helping the people who want to blame the mental patients for everything.”

          Agreed. whether they realise they are doing that or not.

          “The NRA wants to blame us so guns aren’t restricted for the rest of people.”

          ‘The rest of people’ being people who “go with the flow”, the jackass who shoots another guy over a parking spot, the gun totin’ cowboy wannabe who thinks bullying people makes him cool, and any sort of person who, in school, was considered a bully, but “he’s normal, so no need to worry.” Overall, “the rest of the people” are “peopel who are not awake/don’t give a shit”

          “The gun control people want to tar us so they can chip away at gun rights by gradually broadening the list of prohibited purchasers.”

          Those people, the flip side of the gun rights coin, have decided who CAN’T have guns. Gun rights advocates PROMOTE guns to normal (belligerant, stupid, unaware people) and anti-gun groups PREVENT them for “ABNORMAL” people (thoughtful, troubled, caring, dissatisfied, disgruntled, abused, downtrodden, awake, therefore angry and confused people), who they (rightly) fear will, if armed, stand up for themselves and others if the elites come and try some funny shit on them.

          Then, the media plays up the pro gun crowd (who supply guns to assholes) and the anti-gun crowd (who take guns away from dissenters) as supposed opponents, so we can choose a side, pick between shit and crap, so to speak.

          All the while ignoring the fact that the people who control everything are behind BOTH those sides.

          “All of this discussion of how violent and suicidal we are is going to make stigma worse and worse.”

          I agree. Not all mentally ill people are violent and not all violent people are mentally ill. But if the elites can convince Americans that people who question authority are mentally ill, and that mentally ill people are dangerous, then they will think people who question authority are dangerous.

          And when the elite, both by itself and via our society, push these “mentally ill” people to become violent and suicidal (if only in a technical sense, with context removed) by invading their homes (forcing them to shoot back) and by ruining their lives (forcing them to want to commit suicide), even though the people themselves are not violent and suicidal per se or out of context. All people see are the technical/literal occurrences of violence and suicide and leave context out of it.

          Of course, even in these circumstances, not all MI people will be violent or suicidal. Sometimes the authorities will exaggerate a statement the person made or an action they took to make it look more violent or suicidal. And sometimes they just outright lie and say they are, total fabrication.

  55. You and I often disagree, but on this subject we’re completely in tune. If guns are too dangerous for people with mental illness, statistically speaking they’re too dangerous for men.

    I’ve been meaning to write something very similar to this, but now I’ve no need to do so. Thank you!

  56. Very well stated.

    One thing I want to point out is that gun rights advocates tend to become (justifiably, in my opinion) dismissive of anti-gun types when the latter is unwilling or unable to distinguish a clip from a mag. I am just as dismissive of either and both when they are unable to distinguish a mental illness from a neurological disorder.

    • MT, don’t you think the line between mental illness and neurological disorder is a bit ambiguous. Seems a bit like the difference between science and religion. The more science learns about things the less people see it as religion. I think quite a lot of what today is considered mental illness will shortly be solidly in the realm of neurology.